.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[Tell]

Is that a bullet failure? I thought monos will sometimes yaw, which creates about as much damage as they can. I’m fairly ignorant about them, but I thought the point was to pretty much poke through the animal, and maybe make a wound slightly larger than the bullet’s diameter.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I suspect most of those that did yaw, folks made that observation with a dead animal on the ground. That's like saying I have heard and seen pictures of small calibers destroying sides of meat, and that doesn't get received because I've actually never observed it in a dead animal that I've shot. I would caution to take that with a grain of salt. I appreciate you saying you don't have much experience shooting monos.

I am not shooting small calibers (270 win smallest, 280 Rem, 30 cals and 35 Whelen) but I've never had one yaw (all Barnes of different vintage in the last 30 years). They punch a hole going in, tatter and chunk up the vitals and punch a hole going out. I can tell this by observing the dead animals on the ground.

 

[Tell]

To say "I thought monos will sometimes yaw", doesn't sound like first-hand experience. Yet I suspect most of those that did yaw, folks made that observation with a dead animal on the ground. That's like saying I have heard and seen pictures of small calibers destroying sides of meat, and that doesn't get received because I've actually never observed it in a dead animal that I've shot. I would caution to take that with a big grain of salt.

I am not shooting small calibers (270 win smallest, 280 Rem, 30 cals and 35 Whelen) but I've never had one yaw. They punch a hole going in, tatter and chunk up the vitals and punch a hole going out. I can tell this by observing the dead animals on the ground.

You are exactly correct. I have only read about monos, and that is why I stated that I am fairly ignorant of their intended wound channel. There was a post recently about the copper rose monos and a discussion about the terminal performance. The bullet yawed and that produced the best wounding you could get out of it if I understood the discussion correctly.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Yaw is an unintended consequence but can help with the desired results. I edited my post slightly after you quoted it, I said I appreciate you noting you haven't had much experience with monos. The rub is the conversation in many cases is around the long range game, thinking with stars in the eyes 400 plus yards and if they can't do that then they feel they are at a big disadvantage in the field. Monos are fantastic for putting meat in the freezer and been doing it for 30 plus years going into this hunting season.

 

[JohnDough]

Just curious why the 70GMX ? There’s much better monos out there. Even 10 years ago guys were getting rid of theirs in favour of the TTSX/TAC-X. Hornady eventually redesigned them into the CX line.

It's what black hills had loaded up. I was evaluating the latest (at the time) generation of 70gr round from Hornady. They made a bunch of quiet revisions to the bullet. As you note, I've since transitioned to the 70gr tsx.

 

[JohnDough]

You are exactly correct. I have only read about monos, and that is why I stated that I am fairly ignorant of their intended wound channel. There was a post recently about the copper rose monos and a discussion about the terminal performance. The bullet yawed and that produced the best wounding you could get out of it if I understood the discussion correctly.

My 70gr TSX rounds typically put an entrance side hole through the ribcage between quarter and 50 cent size, same going out, and in between the punch a bloodshot, shredded hole through lung tissue the size of a tennis ball.

This 70gr GMX punched literally an ice pick hole in, and a 1"x0.3" hole out, with vitals near the exit side showing "meh" trauma.

This is the lung(s) of a deer I shot with 70gr tsx at 75m with my 11.5" sbr, as well as the ribcage. Deer was shot at a slight angle. Bullet path in photo was L to R.




They also penetrate very well. Here is a buck I shot in the chest at 95m.

 

[st1650]

That’s pretty good out of a 11.5in.
I’ll be testing the 77LRX at 22CM speeds this fall for short range hunting. Curious to see if the extra velocity will make a bigger wound channel. I’ve had very good results out of the 145 LRX last year at approx 2600FPS impact speed.

 

[JohnDough]

That’s pretty good out of a 11.5in.
I’ll be testing the 77LRX at 22CM speeds this fall for short range hunting. Curious to see if the extra velocity will make a bigger wound channel. I’ve had very good results out of the 145 LRX last year at approx 2600FPS impact

To clarify, the 70gr gmx failed out of a 16.1" gun. It clocked 2770 from a 14.5 a few weeks prior.

 

[DaveBarrows]

I shoot various calibers, and honestly, the 6.5x47L is my go to cartridge. If the match is a field style match (not a speed race, with 12-rounds in 90-sec, off of wobbly barricades) then I would shoot a 7-SAUM.

 

[treydfoster]

Yep. “Something” through the vitals generally works. Pointy stick, lead round ball, 223 FMJ, mono bullet, match bullet, big magnum, ball bearing would probably work from a stout enough slingshot.


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Man that'd hurt

 

[AZ_Hunter]

My 70gr TSX rounds typically put an entrance side hole through the ribcage between quarter and 50 cent size, same going out, and in between the punch a bloodshot, shredded hole through lung tissue the size of a tennis ball.

This 70gr GMX punched literally an ice pick hole in, and a 1"x0.3" hole out, with vitals near the exit side showing "meh" trauma.

This is the lung(s) of a deer I shot with 70gr tsx at 75m with my 11.5" sbr, as well as the ribcage. Deer was shot at a slight angle. Bullet path in photo was L to R.
View attachment 854088
View attachment 854089


They also penetrate very well. Here is a buck I shot in the chest at 95m.

What velocity are you getting with the 70tsx out of the 11.5?

 

[KHntr]

Yep. “Something” through the vitals generally works. Pointy stick, lead round ball, 223 FMJ, mono bullet, match bullet, big magnum, ball bearing would probably work from a stout enough slingshot.


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I killed hundreds of squirrels and grouse with a wrist rocket and steel bearings over the years (I used to spend 5-7 days a week in the bush as a Forester) and I’m certain I could kill a deer with a 36 cal lead ball from my old Barnett Diablo.

 

[JohnDough]

What velocity are you getting with the 70tsx out of the 11.5?

2550fps at 10ft from muzzle.

 

[juju]

Deer aren't big game. Most shot are under 150#.

The cut off for sure performance on deer with traditional bullets and shot placement is between 6mm and .25.; proven fact.

Obviously if you're an extraordinary rifleman this doesn't apply to you. You could kill an 150# deer with most anything.

The measurable difference between .25 and 6.5mm is the same as the difference between the valley of the grooves and the peaks of the lands. Fanatical fanatics gonna go fanatic over it anyway.

If you have trouble with recoil, .223 and learn to shoot. If you're hopeless, get some Bluetooth ear muffs and a big, heavy, piece of artillery with a brake. Deer are small enough that you really can go big enough to make a difference.

Big game?
.

 

[JohnDough]

Deer aren't big game. Most shot are under 150#.

The cut off for sure performance on deer with traditional bullets and shot placement is between 6mm and .25.; proven fact.

Obviously if you're an extraordinary rifleman this doesn't apply to you. You could kill an 150# deer with most anything.

The measurable difference between .25 and 6.5mm is the same as the difference between the valley of the grooves and the peaks of the lands. Fanatical fanatics gonna go fanatic over it anyway.

If you have trouble with recoil, .223 and learn to shoot. If you're hopeless, get some Bluetooth ear muffs and a big, heavy, piece of artillery with a brake. Deer are small enough that you really can go big enough to make a difference.

Big game?
.

I don't think I'd call "can hit a 6" circle st 150 yards" an "extraordinary rifleman".

 

[JGRaider]

Deer aren't big game. Most shot are under 150#.

The cut off for sure performance on deer with traditional bullets and shot placement is between 6mm and .25.; proven fact.

Obviously if you're an extraordinary rifleman this doesn't apply to you. You could kill an 150# deer with most anything.

The measurable difference between .25 and 6.5mm is the same as the difference between the valley of the grooves and the peaks of the lands. Fanatical fanatics gonna go fanatic over it anyway.

If you have trouble with recoil, .223 and learn to shoot. If you're hopeless, get some Bluetooth ear muffs and a big, heavy, piece of artillery with a brake. Deer are small enough that you really can go big enough to make a difference.

Big game?
.

Not sure what planet you're hunting on.......

State hunting organizations classify deer, elk, moose, caribou, pronghorn antelope, bighorn sheep, wild boar, and other more exotic animals (such as musk ox, mountain goat, buffalo, bears, mountain lions, and even alligators) as big game.

Generally speaking, animals such as upland birds (pheasants, quail, grouse, turkeys), waterfowl (geese, ducks), upland game (rabbits, squirrels), and furbearers (raccoons, coyotes) are considered small game.

 

[Choupique]

Is this where I post about .338 win mag failures?

If you aim a half mil lower than you should have, you get a pile of white hair, some blood dribbles and a 1 mile track with a dog with no dead deer at the end of it.

 

[juju]

Not sure what planet you're hunting on.......

State hunting organizations classify deer, elk, moose, caribou, pronghorn antelope, bighorn sheep, wild boar, and other more exotic animals (such as musk ox, mountain goat, buffalo, bears, mountain lions, and even alligators) as big game.

Generally speaking, animals such as upland birds (pheasants, quail, grouse, turkeys), waterfowl (geese, ducks), upland game (rabbits, squirrels), and furbearers (raccoons, coyotes) are considered small game.

Do you find it useful to compare moose and deer in the same category? Deer are medium game. I don't need .gov to tell me what's what.

 

[HandgunHTR]

The cut off for sure performance on deer with traditional bullets and shot placement is between 6mm and .25.; proven fact.

Can you expound on this a bit more? I am reading it to say that anything smaller than 6mm-.25 cal is not proven on deer. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Tell]

Is this where I post about .338 win mag failures?

If you aim a half mil lower than you should have, you get a pile of white hair, some blood dribbles and a 1 mile track with a dog with no dead deer at the end of it.

My buddies 9 year old son did that with a 223. White poof and a lot of tracking with no deer. Their remedy was to try a 300wm for next season