21 Years Old...

[HawkCreek]

To all you people who support raising the age to 21 to purchase long arms, at what age should they be taken away due to diminished mental capacities 65, 75, 85? And what about voting, surely if someone is to immature to own a gun they dont yet have the mental capacity to vote right? And driving, what age is now mature enough to begin driving?

 

[MuleyFever]

The removal of God from our society is to blame. We need to get back to One Nation Under God. Go to church raise your kids with God. We must teach our children to follow Jesus because the world definitely will not. That's how we can get back to the good ol days.

Jesus Christ.....

Secular Societies Fare Better Than Religious Societies | Psychology Today

If you are curious as to which states are the most/least religious, simply check out the Pew Forum’s Religious Landscape Survey. It’s all there. And then you can go ahead and check out how the various states are faring in terms of societal well-being. The correlation is clear and strong: the more secular tend to fare better than the more religious on a vast host of measures, including homicide and violent crime rates, poverty rates, obesity and diabetes rates, child abuse rates, educational attainment levels, income levels, unemployment rates, rates of sexually transmitted diseases and teen pregnancy, etc. You name it: on nearly every sociological measure of well-being, you’re most likely to find the more secular states with the lowest levels of faith in God and the lowest rates of church attendance faring the best and the most religious states with the highest levels of faith in God and rates of church attendance faring the worst.

I could really care less if they change the age to purchase a gun, so had no comment. The religious reasoning is too much though. Religion has nothing to do with this issue. And yes, I went to Sunday school every week. But, isn't that what religion does? Find a problem and say if there were more religion we wouldn't have that problem.

I am definitely not coming back to argue religion. Good day.

 

[kicker338]

Muleyfever I just read that article, The writer sure doesn't love Jesus does he.

 

[kicker338]

**** I thought I accidentally logged onto MSNBC or some shit. I fully oppose any and all laws regarding any of our rights. Yes rights, something you guys from other countries don't have. We (Americans) fought and died for our rights, not rolled over and took what we were given. What exactly is raising the legal age to 21 going to accomplish? Not a ****ing thing. Those of you so willing to give up your rights freaking scare me, not the dude with a bunker full of arms and ammo. Suggesting to raise the age is nothing but a knee jerk feel good reaction. It will do absolutely nothing to bring down gun violence.
When will they stop putting regulations on our freedoms? How about we put age/gender/race/religion regulations on the other 9? No.....I didn't think so..

That last line is not quite true when it comes to regulations, Just talk to a military Chaplin You won't believe the restrictions put on them.

 

[kicker338]

Gelton, I get what you are saying, but that has not always been my experience. The west in the 70s and even 80s was, except for California, full of rugged individualists.
Since then transplants from California and graduates of western urban universities have endeavored to escape California, but have brought with them the values which cause the very thing that they have tried to escape, and they have taken over the urban centers of political control in a good portion of the west.

HEY watch it there Mike7, not all ove us transplants from California brought their garbage with them, a lot of us left to get away from the garbage. JK Seriously I get what your saying, it really gets to me when people move to another state because their fed up with whats going on in their home state then turn around and try to turn their new home state into the one they just left. I've seen some of it here in Nth. Id. from some of the transplants from other states east and west. My answer to them, if you don't like the way things are done here and want it done they they did it in your old state !!!!! GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM..

 

[Diesel]

As many of you have observed, the people moving from liberal states to traditionally conservative states' population centers are controlling the direction of the country. More than half the population voted for hitlery, even though many knew she was corrupt. That did not matter to them, they just wanted liberalism to continue on its way. Divide and conquer is their method and it works so well. Emotion trumps reason and common sense and liberalism uses this tool on every topic to end logical debate.

Now witness how well that divide and conquer method is alive here at Rokslide. We are fighting among ourselves on an issue that should unite us to defend what all here love so much. Note how the raw emotion of kids being killed by other kids angers us all is used. It is used on every issue that faces us as a nation and people.

We have the media touting the school kids efforts to ban guns. How heroic these kids are portrayed. However these kids are not educated on why the second amendment exists. They do not know world history or even this country's history to know what tyranny we have fought against, how many have died to preserve our freedoms and rights. Almost everyone who is here at Rokslide has lost family members over the generations fighting for those freedoms. These kids are acting on emotions from the loss of their friends and that is understandable, but there are much bigger consequences to consider before that emotion curtails our freedoms forever.

Why do these kids see the issue as evil guns and not evil people? Because they see no reason to possess a gun. They live in urban areas where it is not even safe to fire a gun. It is so much easier to identify a gun than a mentally defective friend or fellow student. It is so much easier to just ban the tool than it is to address the deeper social problems of a sick and immoral populace and admit some of their own are evil or mentally ill. They are too young to have experienced the world and know the value of the second amendment. They have not been taught that value by the schools or their parents.

It is evident that even here, some have not been taught the value we should all hold dear.

The urbanization of the country will eventually overwhelm the freedoms we know now. Too many people crammed into a small area outnumbering the rural areas where food is grown and guns are shot. We just keep letting millions more into this country to further urbanize us. No, our way of life is fading away right before our eyes. No need to rush it by giving away your rights so easily.

 

[bojangles808]

Why do these kids see the issue as evil guns and not evil people?

because we're the only developed first world country where its become normal to watch our kids get slaughtered in schools

 

[BrushyHillGuide]

To all you people who support raising the age to 21 to purchase long arms, at what age should they be taken away due to diminished mental capacities 65, 75, 85? And what about voting, surely if someone is to immature to own a gun they dont yet have the mental capacity to vote right? And driving, what age is now mature enough to begin driving?

That’s a straw man argument and you’re conflating the right to posses a firearm with the right to purchase one. Nobody is saying a teenager shouldn’t be able to shoot an AR or any gun...they’re simply saying they should reach the established age of full maturity, that this country has long embraced, BEFORE they can walk into a store and BUY a rifle on their own. This is a policy that has been in place for handguns since 1968 and nobody has complained about it. Extending it to rifles is really not a giant leap. In most states 21 is also the age requirement for obtaining a concealed carry permit unless you’re in the military. 21 is a long-standing age that we’ve accepted as the point at which a person is a full adult. Setting an age at which someone can do something is standard practice world-wide. I’m not sure what the issue is, here. I’d have a lot bigger issue if the suggestion was a maturity “test” or additional hoops to jump through; but just moving the age by 3 years to give kids a little more time to mature does NO harm that I can see.

My 12 year old loves shooting my .40 pistol and has a suppressed SBR that he’s been shooting for 6 years already. That DOESN’T mean I think he should be able to walk into Walmart and buy one for himself. I’m grateful that he can’t buy ammo on his own; just like I’m glad he has to come ASK if he can shoot his rifle or ANY of his guns. As a father that’s already raised one child to adulthood and has a teenager and a pre-teen, I know very well the immaturity that exists in teenagers....even the most responsible of them. It’s hardly a burden or infringement on their 2A rights to require them to wait until they are old enough to achieve the full range of rights that adults in this country enjoy BEFORE they can go into a store and purchase a firearm on their own. I’ll throw the question back at you: What age IS old enough to buy a firearm on your own? Should my 12 year old or my 15 year old be able to walk in and and buy a rifle? I’m a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment, a lifelong hunter and shooter and someone who makes their living from hunting and shooting and I believe in EXPANDING gun ownership in many cases BUT I don’t think you’re an adult until you’re 21 or are in the military or a first responder. I think that the PURCHASING of firearms should be limited to those that have reached full maturity. Until then, I think they can look to their parents or guardian to determine whether or not they’re mature enough to have a firearm: and, then, some responsibility falls on those parents for the actions of that young person. Is it perfect? Heck no. Nothing is perfect. But it’s a heck of a lot better than allowing an impetuous and hormone-driven teenager complete access to any firearm they want. Clearly, there just isn’t the maturity level that used to exist in our youth and it’s not unreasonable to consider a minor tweak to the age requirement in an attempt to compensate for the lack of maturity - IMHO

Actually, to answer your last question: IF “diminished capacity” is determined in a court, I believe that guns CAN be removed from a person and if that information makes its way into the “system” they certainly won’t pass the background check to purchase weapon from an FFL.


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[5MilesBack]

because we're the only developed first world country where its become normal to watch our kids get slaughtered in schools

If it was "normal" we wouldn't even be having these discussions.

Add up all the school shootings in the history of the United States........total number and total killed. Then let's compare those numbers to everything else. Very small numbers, very small percentages. More people get killed in the city of Chicago in a year than we've ever had killed in schools nationwide and hardly anybody even bats an eye (even Obama that was from there), and that's just one city. But a school shooting happens and all heck breaks loose because of all the emotional hemophiliacs, the sensationalism, the media, and their agenda. When was the last time CNN spent a week covering the tragic deaths in Chicago? When was the last time they covered a story showing a normal every day citizen that was armed, stopping an armed criminal? THOSE citizen stories are the ones they should be covering for a week. But that doesn't fit their agenda. They will show you exactly what they want you to see. Just like North Korea does.

 

[Sverimerica]

Excellent strategy and very good reasoning. This should be the law from 16 up to 23 years old. I only say 23 because the youth today are less mature and more urban than in past generations. The guys who are raised around hunting and shooting would not have any problem getting parents and friends to support them if they are deemed responsible and stable. Military are exempt as they are trained and evaluated, but the commander should still be required to sign off on it for that occasional nut job that joins just to get a gun.



This whole video game violence thing is disturbing, so is cyber bullying. Kids today are exposed to so many tech issues that were not around for past generations. My guess is that these things seduce a few kids and separate them from reality.

Media pounding this shooting and others in the past and keeping score on the new record dead is huge as well. The constant drum of how many are killed challenges copy cats to see if they can beat the record.

Kids are not taught history or civics now days. Too many don't understand that the second amendment was not there for preserving hunting but as a protection against the tyranny of a too powerful big government. AR's are important to the masses to give them a fighting chance to keep our freedom against a more heavily armed and compromised military. Every one of these mass shootings evokes emotions of the anti-gun crowd and weakens our freedom. Most gun owners have even questioned what level of their rights to give up in response to these horrible events. But remember, if you give up the right to bear arms, you will most assuredly give up your freedom. One must only have had to witness the past two years to validate that point.

Thank You Vegeman for a most enlightening post and bringing a solution to the problem.

How long has this been in practice in NZ and what level of violence has NZ seen under this approach?

I have seen a few of these posts like yours referring to the need to take up arms against our military forces or police forces. Some people already feel the government is too big and tyrannical, some people wont feel like that unless things change drastically. When is it ok to shoot law enforcement or american military forces? Seems strange that people are planning for this inevitibility. People who already feel like that today and shoot at government officials, well I dont think they are justified, do you?

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[flatlanderhuffandpuff]

In jest response to sveriamerica.

Admiral Ackbar - "It's A Trap!" - YouTube

 

[Sverimerica]

The removal of God from our society is to blame. We need to get back to One Nation Under God. Go to church raise your kids with God. We must teach our children to follow Jesus because the world definitely will not. That's how we can get back to the good ol days.

Great thing about America is that anyone can not participate in religion and not feel like shit for it. I am very glad there is no state religion or someone suggesting I worship a particular god as you suggest.

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[flatlanderhuffandpuff]

Great thing about America is that anyone can not participate in religion and not feel like shit for it. I am very glad there is no state religion or someone suggesting I worship a particular god as you suggest.

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Absolutely right!

I believe that having the freedom of practicing any religion you want to is, behind the 1st amendment, the best thing about America. That is a luxury that much of the world doesn't have . I also believe that the American constitution is as close to what God hoped for mankind (or peoplekind for you Canadians) since "the fall". To have the freedom to do with your life anything at all that you see fit as long as it doesn't encroach on the freedoms of others.

Regarding your question of at what point the 2nd amendment would be used, I don't have an answer. I know that throughout history governments have turned on their own people many times and the 2A is an insurance policy against exactly that.

 

[Sverimerica]

Absolutely right!

I believe that having the freedom of practicing any religion you want it is, behind the 1st amendment, the best thing about America. That is a luxury that much of the world doesn't have . I also believe that the American constitution is as close to what God hoped for mankind (or peoplekind for you Canadians) since "the fall". To have the freedom to do with your life anything at all that you see fit as long as it doesn't encroach on the freedoms of others.

Regarding your question of at what point the 2nd amendment would be used, I don't have an answer. I know that throughout history governments have turned on their own people many times and the 2A is an insurance policy against exactly that.

I understand that's what people are referring to... Its just disturbing talk for me. The point at which it is morally justified to fire upon state officials is different for everyone. It is unsettling that it is so present in some peoples minds.

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[flatlanderhuffandpuff]

I understand that's what people are referring to... Its just disturbing talk for me. The point at which it is morally justified to fire upon state officials is different for everyone. It is unsettling that it is so present in some peoples minds.

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I also understand you position and I respect it. I would just ask that you consider the atrocities that have happened within the lifetime of our parents and grandparents generation. Sure, they were in different countries under different circumstances but the potential for corruption and barbarism is always present. I'm willing to suspect the residents of those countries thought they had a handle on things and their society was above that kind of swift regression much like most of the western world today.

I think you are probably picturing all NRA members, of which I am not one, and 2A supporters of being in those hillbilly militias that the news loves to picture. I can assure you that the gun owners I know have no interest in going to war with anyone. Were not Cliven Bundys group trying to get out of paying our taxes and have a showdown at the O.K. Corral. We aren't shooting at effigies and having secret meetings in our war rooms.

There are Americans right now making the comparison of Trump to Hitler. If they believe what they're saying why on earth would they want to give away their rights to arm themselves?

 

[Diesel]

I understand that's what people are referring to... Its just disturbing talk for me. The point at which it is morally justified to fire upon state officials is different for everyone. It is unsettling that it is so present in some peoples minds.

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Is it your thinking that "state officials" are the final arbiter? In America we have a constitution and bill of rights that spells out exactly what is the federal and states authority. We are not a democracy, we are a republic and this republic is made up of individual states with laws and rules that are specific to them only. The UNITED States of America.

When the federal government oversteps it's jurisdictions, the courts are called upon to make a decision. States have all rights not spelled out
specifically belonging to the federal government. We have three branches of government to hopefully restrict one branch or entity to from unlimited power.

If all these safeguards fail, the founders in their wisdom provided a means to right the ship. Let us all hope that safeguard is not ever needed.

Additionally, our military is made up of volunteers that come from every state, urban and rural, and every religion and every ethnicity and all sexual persuasions. They are us and we are them. It would be a scenario that our own would have to fire on their own. And vice versa.

Better to be prepared for any unlikely event than be caught flatfooted. Americans love their freedom.

 

[robby denning]

Good thread, let’s keep it that way. I didn’t read all the posts, but how many of these tragedies have actually been caused by shooters under 21? I can only think of a few myself.

 

[MuleyFever]

Good thread, let’s keep it that way. I didn’t read all the posts, but how many of these tragedies have actually been caused by shooters under 21? I can only think of a few myself.

For school shootings over half are miners but from 18 to 21 are usually grouped together as adults. So, it is probably almost all school shooters are under 21.

Most school shooters also get their weapon from home. Parents don't lock up their guns.

 

[Trial153]

The constitution has been amended 27 times. If we dont get a handle on this we may not like number 28.

 

[Jauwater]

I’m against the age change. Mainly because the idea has risen due to an emotional plea for gun control. Raising the age won’t stop the next shooting. Trump is just giving them calories, something to chew on. But I believe that’s a dangerous game to play cause what could be politicized next to put further age restrictions on. Appeasing people just to do so doesn’t help anybody. Regardless of any gun control law it’s no immediate solution to protect children from school shootings. If these people truly cared about protecting the children they would be coming up with more immediate solutions rather then politicizing another tragedy to further an agenda. We can’t give them anything on gun control, especially not age restrictions because it’s complete non sense to think that’ll stop anything. Put in more metal detectors, automated locks, more security. I heard recently of towns in MN that have police/sheriff satellite offices at county schools due to over crowding in their departments. All those could be immediate possibly solutions that we could make happen now. And then take our time in debating logical gun control laws that could help keep society safer. Hell, even if all guns were banned today it’d be 30 years or more before they got all the law abiding citizens guns outta their houses. It’d take even longer to clean the weapons off the streets, which would really never happen. Criminals will always have guns. We need the FBI to get their head out of their asses and start doing their job rather then playing politics like they’ve been busy doing. The FBI dropped the ball, so did the officer that was onsite. The shooter could have been stopped. Why aren’t they being criticized all over the media? Most of these shooters are on some type of pharmaceutical drug, why aren’t they demanding big pharm to clean up their act? Nope, it’s the President, and NRA’s fault, and they demand more gun control to save the “kids” they say. The same people who are demanding gun control to save the kids vote for pro-choice. Take a look at the reported number of abortions to the CDC since 1970, it’s overwhelming. So no, I wouldn’t give these people anything on gun control because I don’t believe their actions show that keeping people safe is their main concern.


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