2 lost elk and conclusions.

[wyosam]

My freezer disagrees with your assessment of match bullets.

Never said they don’t kill game. They work well some of the time. There are options out there that will perform in a much broader range of velocities/shot angles.


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[BuzzH]

Hit elk right with about anything from a .22 centerfire to a .375 and you'll be fine.

Hit elk on the edges with about anything from a .22 centerfire to a .375 and you'll be screwed.

Seen it...

 

[cuttiebrownbow]

There is a contradicting argument here when looking at rifle calibers and archery hunting for elk.

Archery equipment - get the heaviest arrow, that still allows for good speeds and a broadhead that is focused on penetration. Call that a 500 grain arrow. Pretty much universally accepted by big game archery hunters. Not too many people advocating light/fast whitetail set ups for elk.

Rifle - many people advocate smaller calibers that would be suited for whitetails (270s and similar) and push for shot placement.

Flinching could be a part of it for some people. I have seen people flinch when they don’t know their gun isn’t loaded.

I shoot a 300wsm and I know at least a few times a year I pull the trigger without a round in (unknowingly) and I don’t flinch. So i guess I’m good there. I have done it to animals twice in my life - didn’t flinch their either.

If I didn’t feel comfortable with the 300wsm I would be using my 270. Until then my 270 is for deer and my 300 is for elk.


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[WRO]

Never said they don’t kill game. They work well some of the time. There are options out there that will perform in a much broader range of velocities/shot angles.


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In my experience (30ish between bergers and eld series) I can't say I've seen them ever not work well.

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[KOK]

take home lesson... learn how to shoot

 

[AaronMColeman]

My freezer disagrees with your assessment of match bullets.

I guess my question would be, wirh all the incredible bullets out today, why did you choose a match bullet?

 

[Elkangle]

I've had both bergers and eldx and eldm leave me wanting more in performance.....the vast majority you will be fine but its that 5% scenario that these bullets become less suited

This gets back to killing elk under circumstances...its fine as long as your fine limiting your self to certain shots...

Arrows and bullets are drastically different but a good example would be expandable vs fixed and the pros/cons of those two

Both have killed loads of elk...one has the chance of killing faster while one has the chance of being more reliable in a broader range of circumstances but killing slower

The lead bullets are the expandables
More solid bullets are the fixed...

You poke a bull in the guts you are much better off with a berger..but that bull I wacked in the shoulder with an eldx and finally killed him with a neck shot an hour later cuz the bullet didn't reach the lungs...well...you get the idea

 

[WRO]

I guess my question would be, wirh all the incredible bullets out today, why did you choose a match bullet?

Because they fly well and kill well.

I like bullets to dump all there energy in the animal, not blow through it.

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[bummer7580]

Good news, bull #2 above survived his wound. Another outfitter sent us a picture of him taken 3 days ago. He said the bull was feeding and showed no limp or being humped up. How and where on his body he was wounded I have no clue. We could start another post speculating what happened. If the outfitter puts him on the ground I'll try to get permission to post pictures. He's an incredible bull.

The bull that my friend wounded(#2 in OP) has been harvested by another outfitter. To see a picture of this bull go to Wade Lemon Outfitting facebook page. I'm already hearing crap talk that he's a ranch bull and there was a posse of guides watching him- wrong! Because of where he lived very few people knew of him. I'm thankful he survived the first wound and didn't end up coyote feed.

 

[amassi]

The bull that my friend wounded(#2 in OP) has been harvested by another outfitter. To see a picture of this bull go to Wade Lemon Outfitting facebook page. I'm already hearing crap talk that he's a ranch bull and there was a posse of guides watching him- wrong! Because of where he lived very few people knew of him. I'm thankful he survived the first wound and didn't end up coyote feed.

This one?

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[204guy]

The bull that my friend wounded(#2 in OP) has been harvested by another outfitter. To see a picture of this bull go to Wade Lemon Outfitting facebook page. I'm already hearing crap talk that he's a ranch bull and there was a posse of guides watching him- wrong! Because of where he lived very few people knew of him. I'm thankful he survived the first wound and didn't end up coyote feed.

Was your friend able to learn where he wounded it? From your description it sounds like he may have hit the spinal process alabove the spine.

 

[roosiebull]

This one?

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holy hell! can you reach out and ask about your buddy's shot, to see what actually went wrong? that one is gonna sting for awhile

 

[bummer7580]

This one?

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That is him. Thanks for putting the picture up amassi, not sure I would have figured it out. I hope we all come across a bull like that at some point.

 

[roosiebull]

There is a contradicting argument here when looking at rifle calibers and archery hunting for elk.

Archery equipment - get the heaviest arrow, that still allows for good speeds and a broadhead that is focused on penetration. Call that a 500 grain arrow. Pretty much universally accepted by big game archery hunters. Not too many people advocating light/fast whitetail set ups for elk.

Rifle - many people advocate smaller calibers that would be suited for whitetails (270s and similar) and push for shot placement.

Flinching could be a part of it for some people. I have seen people flinch when they don’t know their gun isn’t loaded.

I shoot a 300wsm and I know at least a few times a year I pull the trigger without a round in (unknowingly) and I don’t flinch. So i guess I’m good there. I have done it to animals twice in my life - didn’t flinch their either.

If I didn’t feel comfortable with the 300wsm I would be using my 270. Until then my 270 is for deer and my 300 is for elk.


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it seems to boil down to what's trending currently on the internet, and then there is argument from those who have real world experience that may go against current trends. i have had light fast arrow go through elk scapulas several times, even a knuckle once on a mature roosie... i have also had heavy slow arrows (642gr) fail to penetrate.... the basic theme is a good shot results in a short track job, bad shots don't.

i don't think there is a single downside to more energy (bullet or arrow) until it effects your ability to place it accurately..... what that energy ends up being varies between all of us.

a magnum cartridge or heavy arrow isn't going to reliably bail you out if you crap your pants in the heat of the moment. the majority of (not all) of failures i have seen shooting critters have been the shooter.... people are so hell bent on avoiding responsibility that we have tons of trivial internet arguments.... like elk cartridges and arrow weight.... do your part and any arrow/cartridge/bullet, within reason will do it's job.

with time in the woods and experience, most will eventually step up to a more specialized weapon that suits what they do, but failing to kill the critter is almost ALWAYS the fault of the shooter.

it's risky to shoot a bull in the shoulder at 400yds with a 6.5creed.... some will take their chances, not do their part and blame the cartridge. if you have a clear path to the lungs, and can hit your mark, a lot of things work... if you don't have energy to spare, limit yourself to those shots.... it's easy.

some aren't happy with an elk cartridge that can't kill an elk reliably that's facing directly away.... i am, because why would i want to take a shot that is going to blow up a ham and blow the guts up and make a giant mess?

i think cartridges for elk are like pickups, some people are just really insecure and are afraid someone may not think that their gun is manly enough..... someone needs to start a youtube channel that's called "mall crawlers and magnums TV"

all of that being said, if i rifle hunted elk, or ever do, i will likely add a 300wm or SM to the stable, i don't mind shooting them, and it's a good excuse to buy a new rifle. if i randomly hunt them one year, i would have no issue using my 7rem mag.... i wouldn't use my 6.5creed because i have a rifle better suited already.

taking a 16yr old girl cow hunting until she kills one, she will be using my creed, and it will be plenty.... just may have to pass up some potential opportunities waiting for one that suits our situation.... no big deal

 

[roosiebull]

That is him. Thanks for putting the picture up amassi, not sure I would have figured it out. I hope we all come across a bull like that at some point.

you could point out to your friend that he has pretty weak seconds.... might make him feel better

 

[Indian Summer]

For the record since a few posts got off track.... arrows and bullets are apples and oranges.

Arrows kill by hemorrhaging. They cut blood vessels causing blood loss. Period.

Bullets kill by hydrostatic shock. The energy from a projectile moving so fast causes a wave of pressure that damages everything around it. Muscles, nerves, bone etc. The resistance of the bone and tissue causes properly designed bullets to expand increasing the pressure. We call it “dumping the energy” and there are mixed opinions on dumping all the energy before exiting or passing through which can create a better blood trail but wastes energy.

But my point is that it makes no sense to say something like “if arrows can kill elk what’s wrong with light bullets”. Nobody here debated whether or not elk are big and tough. They also live in terrain that helps them motor downhill never to be seen again.

Yes lighter bullets kill elk. But dumping more energy will kill them faster. More importantly it creates a larger shock wave which increases the margin for error. In other words you can miss a little and still damage the right parts.

Looking at ft lbs of energy is the best way to compare bullet potential AT VARIOUS RANGES when it comes to killing assuming placement is good. If you shot 2 elk in the exact same spot using light or heavy bullets the amount of damage will be different. Drastically different at longer ranges.

A 168 Berger from a 6.5 Creed stores about 2900 lbs of energy at the muzzle but only about 600 at 1000 yards. A 220 grain bullet from a .300 Ultra Mag has a muzzle energy of 4200 pounds and 1350 at a thousand yards. At 500 yards that 220 grainer is still holding 2400 ft lbs of energy.

Most people figure it takes 1000 to 1500 pounds of energy to effectively kill an elk. So if you want to shoot light bullets that’s fine but know your limitations. Know where your bullet runs out of gas. When I read a thread that says “I practiced all summer and I know I hit the bull where I wanted to but we didn’t find him” I always think.... maybe you did hit him good but what did you REALLY hit him with? He might be dead but what good is that if you cannot find him? Elk hunting doesn’t just mean killing elk it means putting them in the freezer.

I lost one elk out of 24. I shot it with an arrow. I shot one bull with a 7mm Rem Mag and the rest with 200 grain bullets from a .300 RUM. I assure you not all of my shots were perfect. Nobody makes all perfect shots in the field. But I had NO trouble finding any of those elk.

 

[Wrench]

I never sweat energy. Take a bullet and push on it....how hard is it to push it through tissue? Smaller needs less...now throw a little sd into the mix, crank up the speed abo e minimum upset for the bullet and go grab some meat.

Shove a 100 grain bullet completely through an elk at 400 yards and have it fall like it got hit by lightning....and have a bull at 30 yards catch a 375h&h and run like hell....both lungs.

According to the internet the second bull should have done a back flip. He didn't.

 

[wyosam]

Energy is a very useful number in comparing cartridges shooting bullets not designed to exit. In that case energy is measurable. In a bullet designed to exit, energy is a meaningless number, because you have no idea how much was expended in the animal. You’d know what it had when it got there, but you’d have to know the weight and speed of the projectile on exit to know roughly how much the animal absorbed. For bullets designed for pass through, worry less about energy, and more about impact velocity. You need enough for the bullet to function as designed to create an adequate wound channel. I like to add a significant margin on that number, because I’m not a long range guy, and I shoot relatively small caliber bullets at elk. Mostly with either, you need to put it where it goes.

I am lucky enough to be surrounded by great elk hunting, and have long seasons. I have zero reason to push a marginal shot, and I am well aware of the limitations of my equipment- though its capable quite a ways beyond the distance I am willing to shoot at game regardless of what I’m shooting.


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[Old and gray]

Post #30 is bang on. This after having shot 15 bulls all 6x6 or better with 270. 30’06 or 300wsm.

 

[poppa bear0062]

Incredible bull!


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