2 lost elk and conclusions.

[roosiebull]

Those rushed follow shots tend to be way harder on meat than little bit of jerky meat lost the first shot.

haha, LOTS of truth to that! a few years ago i took a friend to get his first elk... opening afternoon, controlled situation, easy 150ish yd broadside shot, 270... good shot, bull is dead on his feet but on his feet, he's in a good spot to break down and i don't want that changing so i tell him to shoot him again, high in the neck.... BOOM... no reaction, bull staggers around and tips over anyways basically in his tracks.... we get up to him, and of course we are happy, checking him out. after a few minutes, i'm like where did that second shot go, he thinks he may have missed and pulled low being in a rush (there was no rush, but your mind says there is) i finally find the second shot, haha.... proof of sex is mangled and partially missing! HOW? like a 6ft miss off a rest at 150yds! follow-up shots can get ugly.... i have done it myself, you are spot on there, and it's a valid point

 

[WRO]

let me know your schedule in the next few days.... don't think it would take us long.

I'd love to but I don't think Oregon will sell me another tag this year

 

[roosiebull]

I'd love to but I don't think Oregon will sell me another tag this year

haha, oh yeah! let's make it a plan 1st season 2021! i'll shoot a small one with my bow and save you the big ones..... don't be too flattered, i just lack self control and like eating them

 

[CoMtnMike]

so I dont have knowledge to add, too new for that. But last year I shot a mule deer buck at under 200 yards with 30.06 165 grain federal coppers. I saw the other 2 deer run off but expected to find him dropped right there. I didnt find him that night. Next morning I found him 400 yards down hill in the sage brush piled up behind a rock (birds going there made me curious). Smelled fine and was 18F that morning so he all went in the freezer. I took pictures of the front quarters while processing. Both had bullet holes, inlet hole clean through without touching bone (arm) outlet was more ragged and I could feel edge of the scapula in it. I dont know what I could have done different except search deeper into the dark that night. Half the backstraps and some other pieces were quite liver like.... real bummer pulling those out of the freezer for the family... but got through him.
But could that just be the bullet didnt expand? Or just bad luck? Same exact scenario dropped a black bear last month except the inlet hole clipped the shoulder blade...
Only my fifth season hunting, so not enough experience to draw conclusions. But not finding that buck sucked that night. Pulling crappy meat out of the freezer sucked. I'd rather see an animal hit the ground... Hopefully a cow elk in a week... I'll keep aiming for lungs and broadside but this makes me wonder...

 

[roosiebull]

so I dont have knowledge to add, too new for that. But last year I shot a mule deer buck at under 200 yards with 30.06 165 grain federal coppers. I saw the other 2 deer run off but expected to find him dropped right there. I didnt find him that night. Next morning I found him 400 yards down hill in the sage brush piled up behind a rock (birds going there made me curious). Smelled fine and was 18F that morning so he all went in the freezer. I took pictures of the front quarters while processing. Both had bullet holes, inlet hole clean through without touching bone (arm) outlet was more ragged and I could feel edge of the scapula in it. I dont know what I could have done different except search deeper into the dark that night. Half the backstraps and some other pieces were quite liver like.... real bummer pulling those out of the freezer for the family... but got through him.
But could that just be the bullet didnt expand? Or just bad luck? Same exact scenario dropped a black bear last month except the inlet hole clipped the shoulder blade...
Only my fifth season hunting, so not enough experience to draw conclusions. But not finding that buck sucked that night. Pulling crappy meat out of the freezer sucked. I'd rather see an animal hit the ground... Hopefully a cow elk in a week... I'll keep aiming for lungs and broadside but this makes me wonder...

that's the reason some don't like mono bullets (and lack of expansion at slower velocities) i have not had that experience, shoot barnes in my 7rem mag, but i could see it missing bone on entrance. if i was you, i would have lost some confidence in those bullets... 400yds is a LONG ways on a good shot with likely no blood.

you could go with a bonded bullet that's still tough but reliably expands like an accubond, partition, or similar

we all have to go from our experiences we have and see and draw our best conclusions.... there is no best way, there are lots of practical ways. obviously the internet has lots of varying opinions, lots of good info, but your own experiences are the best to follow. the 06' is a painfully practical cartridge, find a bullet you like and trust, stick with it and build confidence with it.

your trophy copper will probably work great on a cow coming up, but if you don't trust it, find one you do. if you are in a hurry to find that bullet, accubonds seem to shoot great in most rifles.... maybe not the best bullet, but one with a good history

good luck!

 

[WRO]

so I dont have knowledge to add, too new for that. But last year I shot a mule deer buck at under 200 yards with 30.06 165 grain federal coppers. I saw the other 2 deer run off but expected to find him dropped right there. I didnt find him that night. Next morning I found him 400 yards down hill in the sage brush piled up behind a rock (birds going there made me curious). Smelled fine and was 18F that morning so he all went in the freezer. I took pictures of the front quarters while processing. Both had bullet holes, inlet hole clean through without touching bone (arm) outlet was more ragged and I could feel edge of the scapula in it. I dont know what I could have done different except search deeper into the dark that night. Half the backstraps and some other pieces were quite liver like.... real bummer pulling those out of the freezer for the family... but got through him.
But could that just be the bullet didnt expand? Or just bad luck? Same exact scenario dropped a black bear last month except the inlet hole clipped the shoulder blade...
Only my fifth season hunting, so not enough experience to draw conclusions. But not finding that buck sucked that night. Pulling crappy meat out of the freezer sucked. I'd rather see an animal hit the ground... Hopefully a cow elk in a week... I'll keep aiming for lungs and broadside but this makes me wonder...

There is a reason I shoot match bullets and hate solids and hard bullets like accubonds.

I've yet to have an ELDM not expand or "blow" up.

 

[Formidilosus]

But could that just be the bullet didnt expand? Or just bad luck?

Monolithic bullets such as Barnes TSX/TTSX, Nosler Etips, etc. will and do fail to adequately expand much more often than softer bullets fail to penetrate. The reason that most don’t see this is because adequate penetration is the most important facet in terminal ballistics and even a small hole through vital organs generally leads to a relatively quick death. The animal does in an acceptable time frame, people see a 1/2” exit hole and believe the bullet is working just like the adds. However, when or if you recover a mono and it looks like a tight, neat little mushroom and you pulled it after it went the length of the animal- that’s the biggest it ever was.

In general, monos exhibit long, relatively narrow wounds and are more likely to “pencil” then any other bullet design. Monos can kill well of course, but in hundreds of animals including depredations, if there is a bullet issue it’s almost always with monolithics.

 

[bummer7580]

I've guided a bunch of elk hunts...I've seen them killed with 7rems, 308, 300s, 270s, 30-06s, 375s and some others. I told all of my guys shoot straight up the leg in the dead middle of the shoulder "favor lower". Once hit shoot till they go down. This gave them a chance to "break them down" and puts them will within the vital zone. Not all the shots ended up straight up the legs as habit took over for some guys...including 3 well placed shots a couple inches behind the crease with a .375 at 300 yards...bull stood for two shots 3rd shot it took a couple steps and fell (it was dead the first shot). Through the shoulder with a .270 one or two steps and down. Big isn't always better but it doesn't mean small is more efficient either.

My criteria when asked by people what caliber, grain weight/load to shoot.

#1 what can you shoot comfortably that is enough gun (sorry .223 is not an "elk" caliber. Can you kill them with it yes I understand). This helps with shot placement instead of the "my outfitter told me I need a 300win or bigger so I need to by a new gun". "but you have a .308 and are limiting your shots to 400 yards anyways...and most elk are killed under 300 yards"..."but my outfitter said."

#2 A well constructed bullet...I like good bonded bullets next are monos then good cup and core/partitions, last are Nosler Ballistic Tip type bullets and Match bullets. (your order may differ this is mine that is fine). Once a elk was hit, hit it again and I want the bullet to be able to drive into the animal after breaking stuff if need be. I get the well placed shot but sh!t happens. Hit a big bull bad and it turns and runs away...try driving a .223 up through it.

This is a very good comment. The only thing I differ a bit on is for myself I'd use a heavy partition bullet before a mono.

 

[Wapiti1]

Monolithic bullets such as Barnes TSX/TTSX, Nosler Etips, etc. will and do fail to adequately expand much more often than softer bullets fail to penetrate. The reason that most don’t see this is because adequate penetration is the most important facet in terminal ballistics and even a small hole through vital organs generally leads to a relatively quick death. The animal does in an acceptable time frame, people see a 1/2” exit hole and believe the bullet is working just like the adds. However, when or if you recover a mono and it looks like a tight, neat little mushroom and you pulled it after it went the length of the animal- that’s the biggest it ever was.

In general, monos exhibit long, relatively narrow wounds and are more likely to “pencil” then any other bullet design. Monos can kill well of course, but in hundreds of animals including depredations, if there is a bullet issue it’s almost always with monolithics.

Are you strictly speaking of older 100% retained weight designs like a Barnes? I think the more recent fragmenting monos like a Lehigh Controlled Chaos or CEB Lazer are a better compromise between absolute penetration and increasing the permanent wound channel.

Jeremy

 

[WCB]

This is a very good comment. The only thing I differ a bit on is for myself I'd use a heavy partition bullet before a mono.

I actually probably agree with you on this...I'd probably put a Partition in front of mono then standard cup and cores.

 

[WCB]

I agree with this but I have never really liked it. To me it’s like saying “work smarter not harder” It dismisses the option for both. I would assume most guides feel this way but when it comes down to it would rather have a guy who shoots a big gun well without flinching and practices well beyond the range he will shoot an animal.

CO...I think it is more in reference to actually one or the other...with the obvious answer of course I would rather see both. At least when I was guiding and when I recommend calibers and loads now, as part of my actual job, I use this as a baseline for newer guys or the situation where the guy specifically stated they have not shot larger caliber rifles or are recoil sensitive and already have a xyz caliber that is perfectly capable of taking the game they are going after.

The smart and hard thing was always something I though about growing up in sports. However, I realized the coaches that used that in my experience were relaying to us "you guys are working your asses off but you have to be smarter about it because hard work alone is not getting the results we want".

 

[wyosam]

So to recap:

You need either a Bazooka or a rifle you can shoot well.

Bullet placement matters.

Shoot them in the shoulder if you hate meat.

Every bullet sucks for elk, try lightning next time.

They either bleed to death or die of hydrostatic shock..

Anything else I missed?

I’m not a veterinarian, but I’ve dealt with a fair number of GSWs in humans. Dying of hydrostatic shock isn’t a thing. Hydrostatic shock is a mechanism that creates tissue damage, bleeding, and if close enough disruption of the nervous system. It is there to a degree on any GSW, the nature and speed of the projectile affects how much.


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[wyosam]

Are you strictly speaking of older 100% retained weight designs like a Barnes? I think the more recent fragmenting monos like a Lehigh Controlled Chaos or CEB Lazer are a better compromise between absolute penetration and increasing the permanent wound channel.

Jeremy

Yep, the “new generation” solids are a whole different ballgame. I’m partial to the Hammers, but I’m sure those others are equally effective.


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[Formidilosus]

Are you strictly speaking of older 100% retained weight designs like a Barnes? I think the more recent fragmenting monos like a Lehigh Controlled Chaos or CEB Lazer are a better compromise between absolute penetration and increasing the permanent wound channel.

Jeremy

Yes. Monos in the TSX, Etip, Trophy copper, etc. design.

Fragmenting monos are better, but still will not create the tissue damage that equivalent fragmenting lead bullets do.

 

[wyosam]

Yes. Monos in the TSX, Etip, Trophy copper, etc. design.

Fragmenting monos are better, but still will not create the tissue damage that equivalent fragmenting lead bullets do.

That may be true, but they will offer devastating expansion with a large wound channel AND a sizable exit would.


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[Indian Summer]

Ok I’ll play, so in summary:

Use light bullets that blow up but since one might not do the job just keep on shooting until he falls over.

It’s ok to use a .22 short as long as placement is good because apparently energy doesn’t really matter.

Accubonds suck even though herds of elk drop over dead from them every year.

Distance of shot is a variable not even worth mentioning.

I don’t shoot twice. Quite often that’s not even possible so my theory is make the first one count.... one shot one kill. While I completely agree that nobody should shoot mote gun than they can comfortably handle I also believe that elk hunters should shoot as much gun as they can. As a matter of fact I think you should pick one that’s just a tad out of your league and tame it down with a muzzle brake. Those things do their job remarkably well! This thread should be about doing everything you can to make a quick clean kill under some less than perfect circumstances. Not “let’s talk about what the minimum requirements are to get the job done”

 

[Squincher]

Did copper bullets come about because they are superior to lead or to meet non toxic restrictions?

 

[Elkangle]

Did copper bullets come about because they are superior to lead or to meet non toxic restrictions?

Have you killed a few animals with the fragmenting monos ? Like hammers ?

 

[Squincher]

Have you killed a few animals with the fragmenting monos ? Like hammers ?

Do you know, or just not want to answer for some reason?

 

[Elkangle]

Do you know, or just not want to answer for some reason?

Lol are you getting upset over that ??

Yes I feel i have a decent idea, I don't think the hammer guys living in Montana are building bullets for a California market

My last 6 rifle kills have been, in my opinion, much better performance than lead

So...can you answer me ? Or do you just not want to answer for some reason?