2 lost elk and conclusions.

[Gila]

How many of you guys check your zero before you hunt? If I have to drive a ways or take a plane ride, I always check zero. Some barrels like a round or two of fouling anyway.

 

[wapitibob]

As long as an animal has oxygenated blood in the brain, intact central nervous system, and a few intact legs, it can go a surprising distance. Disrupt the communication from brain to body and they fold.

High Shoulder = Off Switch

This Antelope went nearly 100 yards.

 

[Formidilosus]

I know the 30-06 is plenty of rifle and would take it again but given the chance i would choose a 300 wm or bigger.

So what are you going to do when your using a 300 mag and the animal is a hundred yards farther? Same exact bullet, same impact velocity, same animal, and same placement equals the exact same outcome.

There is no magic to this. Elk are big animals. They have large organs. It takes a certain amount of time to pass out from loss of oxygen. That’s time is going to happen regardless of what cartridge/bullet is used. There is no bullet/carriage combo in any general hunting rifle that can produce a wound channel as big in an elk as a a 223 with certain bullets can in an Antelope. Not until you get to big 300 and 338 magnums shooting frangible bullets does any real “advantage” with poor placement potentially come into play. And there is no free lunch. Very few people can shoot, and will shoot enough with normal weight magnums to make the shootability/terminal ballistics trade off worth it.

An animal shot in the lungs passes out due to a pneumothorax generally, and dies due to lack of oxygen to the brain. How long can you stay standing while holding your breath before passing out? For most people it’s well over a minute. If you run full out, it’s much less. Whitetails get shot and usually sprint passing out much sooner than elk, who when shot at any distance generally stand there or walk- it’s quite logical why elk seem to take longer to die.
I’ve killed and seen hundreds of deer killed, and a buck that has been fighting or otherwise upset, and especially at any distance can often take multiple rounds of very destructive bullets before going down without CNS damage. Elk are no different.

 

[Gila]

The cardio-vascular system is pressurized. Pucture both balloons and if the elk doesn't drop in it's tracks, it won't go very far. If you hold your breath, the brain is still getting oxygen.

 

[Marble]

How many of you guys check your zero before you hunt? If I have to drive a ways or take a plane ride, I always check zero. Some barrels like a round or two of fouling anyway.

We always do.

This is a good thing to do because it also is a function check on the scope and rifle. We have had guns have issues several times and then have to use our back up.

We find loose stocks, stuck plunger electors, missing magazine boxes, cracked stocks, loose scopes/ mounts, fouled barrels. Dirty chambers.


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[robby denning]

How many of you guys check your zero before you hunt? If I have to drive a ways or take a plane ride, I always check zero. Some barrels like a round or two of fouling anyway.

I always check mine, usually throughout the fall I continue to shoot my gun too. I had a kid show up in camp last week with a 30.06 that was supposed to be a tack driver. Well I’m sure it was but when I test fired, he was 8 inches right at 50 yards! I fixed it, shot about an inch group


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[Hill Difficulty]

4 things:

>a 6mm is enough for elk
>too many hunters shoot too much gun and too much scope magnification
>sometimes bullets do really weird things inside the animal cavity, sometimes unexplainable
>the mystery of unrecovered animals is almost always puzzling, can lead to odd speculation/misdirected blame

[Edit for the OP: My response is not directed at you. All of us know the tendency to prescribe "what ought to be...". I don't want to be that guy. FWIW, your post is thoughtful and helpful.]

 

[Michael54]

4 things:

>a 6mm is enough for elk
>too many hunters shoot too much gun and too much scope magnification
>sometime bullets do really weird things inside the animal cavity, sometimes unexplainable
>the mystery of unrecovered animals is almost always puzzling, can lead to odd speculation/blame

Going down the rabbit hole of unrecovered game gets real expensive.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I shot many elk with a 270 but never with mono bullets. I was lucky to never lose any of them.

 

[Squincher]

A larger, heavier bullet is never a worse choice than a smaller, lighter bullet.

 

[Michael54]

Might not be a bad idea to find a photo/diagram and keep it on your phone and show clients who have never hunted elk exactly where to aim. There are a lot of people that dont know and hit exactly where they are aiming at. Problem is they aren't aiming at the right spot. It happens a lot around here on whitetail. Everyones idea of "behind the shoulder" is different. For a few years when i first began hunting i was shooting too far back and couldn't figure out why i wasn't dropping whitetails in their tracks. All it took was one time with my father in law asking me if i hit where i was aiming and him pointing to where i should be aiming after i said yes has made all of the difference in the world with a lot less tracking. However some animals just refuse to die no matter what you are using and how well placed the shot is.

 

[cohunter14]

Simply throwing my experiences out here, take from it what you will. The more elk I’ve shot or seen killed, the more I believe that what the bullet does on impact matters more than anything. Yes, shot placement matters. But when you have a split second to take an offhand shot through a shooting lane at 100 yards and factor in nerves, in addition to a compromised shooting position, that shot might not be perfect every time. You don’t get to setup with shooting sticks or prone on a bipod every time an elk shows up that you want to punch your tag on. Because of this, I choose to hunt with a larger caliber rifle, but I also choose to shoot a bullet that will dump all of its energy on an elk upon entrance. It’s been my experience that, even with a larger caliber, if you don’t shoot a bullet that does this, the chances of an elk covering some ground, even after a perfect shot, are significant. On the flip side, a bullet that dumps all of its energy in an elk upon impact seems to have a drastic effect, even on non-perfect shots.

The last two years have been perfect examples of this for me. I have had an offhand shot and a quick shot from a kneeling position. I do practice a fair amount and consider myself a decent shot, but I’ll be the first to admit that neither of those shots was perfect. However, both of those elk dropped in their tracks. Both shots were inside 150 yards and neither of them had a bullet that exited, which I feel was the big difference. If I compare those to elk I’ve shot in prior years where the bullet didn’t dump its energy on the elk and instead exited, at a similar range of 100-150 yards, the results were vastly different with ‘dead’ elk covering a lot of ground before they finally dropped.

Again, this is just my experience. Personally, I think if hunters had a better understanding of the bullet options that are out there and went for a heavy-for-caliber bullet that dumps it’s energy on an animal instead of penetrating through the animal, we would have a lot less that are lost. In reality, 90%+ go buy a box of ammo off the shelf, sight it in, and go hunt. Regardless of your caliber, that’s not a path to success.

 

[Gila]

I shot many elk with a 270 but never with mono bullets. I was lucky to never lose any of them.

The bull I shot with mono didn't go but a step (130 gr GMX). However I am going to try the ELD-x 145gr. The .270 win has been killing bulls for over 75 years. The way I see it, If it ain't broke why fix it? I have full confidence to take any game on this continent with it.

 

[CAElkhunter]

Every gun has it's optimal range to kill an elk. The farther you want to shoot the bigger the caliber should be to stay in this optimal range. Everyone has made the "great" shot, but when I see someone shooting a 6.5 Creedmore at a Bull at 950 yds it makes me cringe. 270's have killed more elk than any gun over time, but not at 400 - 500 yds. Shot placement kills not caliber but if you plan on shooting over 400 yds you should up gun in most cases. Although it is always best to shoot what you shoot best not just pick the bigger caliber.

 

[Indian Summer]

Every gun has it's optimal range to kill an elk. The farther you want to shoot the bigger the caliber should be to stay in this optimal range. Everyone has made the "great" shot, but when I see someone shooting a 6.5 Creedmore at a Bull at 950 yds it makes me cringe. 270's have killed more elk than any gun over time, but not at 400 - 500 yds. Shot placement kills not caliber but if you plan on shooting over 400 yds you should up gun in most cases. Although it is always best to shoot what you shoot best not just pick the bigger caliber.

Exactly! The debate shouldn’t really be about what caliber is sufficient but how many foot pounds of energy is sufficient to do the job. A smaller lighter bullet does the same thing at 200 yards as many magnums do at 700. If you like still hunting the timber you don’t need the gun I use hunting semi open country where bulls can be seen a thousand yards away.

Define “too much gun”. If a hunter is comfortable with it what’s the problem with a larger caliber??? Too much scope.... What???

 

[Mossyhorns51]

Don't blame the gun/load for what is defineately bad shooting.. 270 w 150 grain pills is plenty of medicine for elk .
I use, a, 280 AI (orig chamber not nosler wanna be) with a, 150-160 grn loads for 33+yrs haven't lost an animal yet

 

[kcm2]

You can draw no conclusions from your experience. the hits may have been poor. The bullet may have expanded immediately upon impact. Unless you recover the animal, you just don't know what happened. I have about 15 data points on elk i have killed plus another dozen I saw get shot, indicating that a well hit elk at 400 yds from a 270/30-06 class rifle with good bullets will die quickly.

 

[wind gypsy]

This thread reminds me of some funny observations from last weekend. I needed to swap scopes on one rifle and re-zero a new load on another so I went to the private range 10 minutes away that was hosting a public “sight in day” the weekend before MN deer opener.

The guy shooting a 300 WM 2 benches down from me was about 5 inches off on his first shot and flinched so bad he missed the 24” wide x 48” tall paper on his next two shots. Good thing he had all that knock down power to kill whitetails when the shots are marginal!

The guy in the bench next to me went to unscrew the elevation cap on his scope and it broke the whole elevation adjustment part off where it meets the scope tube!

I wonder how many bullet failures those two have had..

 

[204guy]

This thread reminds me of some funny observations from last weekend. I needed to swap scopes on one rifle and re-zero a new load on another so I went to the private range 10 minutes away that was hosting a public “sight in day” the weekend before MN deer opener.

The guy shooting a 300 WM 2 benches down from me was about 5 inches off on his first shot and flinched so bad he missed the 24” wide x 48” tall paper on his next two shots. Good thing he had all that knock down power to kill whitetails when the shots are marginal!

The guy in the bench next to me went to unscrew the elevation cap on his scope and it broke the whole elevation adjustment part off where it meets the scope tube!

I wonder how many bullet failures those two have had..

What's the problem? Pretty sure they're good to go. They got a big caliber. Add heavy bullets and whitetails don't stand a chance from those elk guns.





^^^ The above post is 100% sarcasm I take zero & full responsibility for those that don't get it.

 

[mlgc20]

It's probably time to let this thread die guys. Original intent was not to put down any one's choice of cartridge or experience. I mentioned my personal preferences and it has been pointed out I'm delusional and don't understand elk anatomy. Go back and reread original post. I believe in each of the 3 botched hunts I indicated it was "pilot" error responsible for the lost elk.

The thing your OP reminded me of was the importance of practice and having a comfort level with your setup. The first gentleman you mentioned was missing an elk size target from 160 yards 50 percent of the time. That’s got to be a lack of practice. Whatever caliber you choose, there is no substitute for time spent actually shooting the gun.

A couple of weeks ago, I got to watch my 13 year old daughter drop a cow in her tracks with a 308 from 257 yards. She has approximately 2K rounds on that gun. She practices from different distances in different positions. When she shot the elk, we had forgotten her shooting sticks at the truck. But, she’s practiced plenty without shooting sticks, so she setup on a tree/bush thing and made the shot. She did all this on her own, because of practice. All I did was plug my ears.