2 lost elk and conclusions.

[Squincher]

Lol are you getting upset over that ??

Yes I feel i have a decent idea, I don't think the hammer guys living in Montana are building bullets for a California market

My last 6 rifle kills have been, in my opinion, much better performance than lead

So...can you answer me ? Or do you just not want to answer for some reason?

Argumentative a-hole much? I just asked a question. You piped up, for some reason, not to answer it.

 

[204guy]

Did copper bullets come about because they are superior to lead or to meet non toxic restrictions?

Monos were around before the lead bans. Infact Barnes supported the California bans.

I wouldn't call monos superior to traditional bullets for a bunch of reasons. Superior in certain niches, yes.

 

[Elkangle]

Argumentative a-hole much? I just asked a question. You piped up, for some reason, not to answer it.

Lol I'm just having fun, no reason to get upset...this isn't politics

 

[WRO]

That may be true, but they will offer devastating expansion with a large wound channel AND a sizable exit would.


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Exit wounds are only needed for tracking jobs and social media pictures.

The expansion is dogshit compared to a frangible bullet.

Drt or close is always preferable.

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[Indian Summer]

Replacing lead in bullets in my worthless opinion is like reinventing the wheel. Put a hard jacket over it and it’s a penetrating mushrooming machine. I love Nosler partitions for elk. Killed a few caribou with them too. But the soft tips deform in the box and in the magazine and accuracy suffers at longer ranges. So the polymer tipped Accubond is the alternative for me. Man alive I gotta say I have crushed many a bull with them. Double lung, high shoulder, a base of the neck shot once because it’s all I had and if they didn’t die in their tracks they just stood there for Mississippi three and fell over. Some were pass throughs and some weren’t.

I guess it’s safe to say everyone likes what has worked for them and they all work if you stay within the limitations of the cartridge and your abilities.

 

[Zackw]

I’d highly recommend the Backcountry Hunting podcast by Joseph Von Benedikt. He has an episode on elk cartridges that is absolutely spot-on. He recommended starting at 7mm and going up from there. He also has another episode titled ‘it’s not all about shot placement’. Well worth a listen, he knows what he’s talking about.

 

[KurtR]

A 143eldx through the heart at a fair distance will kill an elk I learned last week.

 

[roosiebull]

Ok I’ll play, so in summary:

Use light bullets that blow up but since one might not do the job just keep on shooting until he falls over.

It’s ok to use a .22 short as long as placement is good because apparently energy doesn’t really matter.

Accubonds suck even though herds of elk drop over dead from them every year.

Distance of shot is a variable not even worth mentioning.

I don’t shoot twice. Quite often that’s not even possible so my theory is make the first one count.... one shot one kill. While I completely agree that nobody should shoot mote gun than they can comfortably handle I also believe that elk hunters should shoot as much gun as they can. As a matter of fact I think you should pick one that’s just a tad out of your league and tame it down with a muzzle brake. Those things do their job remarkably well! This thread should be about doing everything you can to make a quick clean kill under some less than perfect circumstances. Not “let’s talk about what the minimum requirements are to get the job done”

i think your summary is a little dramatic

you may be the only elk rifle hunter that won't shoot a second time..... especially after offering up your shots aren't always perfect (nobody makes all perfect shots, anyone who has hunted much understands that) knowing that, and not knowing precisely where that first bullet went, if the critter is still standing, why not shoot again?

i'm not arguing your theory... i will never argue success, but that doesn't make your theory the only right one. i have never heard anyone say a .22 short is acceptable (i have never heard anyone argue the effectiveness of elk with any 22 caliber)

i have never heard anyone recommend light fragmenting bullets for elk.... the guys shooting match bullets at elk are usually shooting a big, powerful cartridge, and expect to shoot a ways out there. it seems the common consensus is, the smaller the cartridge/caliber, the more important bullet construction becomes.

shoot elk with a tough bullet out of a big mangum, what's the difference in a less powerful cartridge if the bullet also passes through? the energy doesn't stay in the critter.

again, not trying to be argumentative, i agree with you using the biggest cartridge you can handle for elk.... why not? i don't agree on over gunning yourself and getting a brake.... i think in many regions that may be a good option, but many regions or styles of elk hunting it could be a disadvantage. if you will always have time to set up and shoot, and don't need to communicate during the moments leading up to a shot, no downside, i agree.... all elk hunting isn't like that.

what you do obviously works well for you or you wouldn't do it, but there is a huge variance in experience level, and how elk are hunted, as well as other factors

 

[Elkangle]

Typically the jacket thickness stays the same relative to the caliber...so a 375 260 grain accubond will be a much tougher bullet then say a 6.5 cal 140 grain accubond

The next thing is energy leaving an animal...I understand the thought but also consider this...look at a ballistics gel test...really don't care which bullet construction...they all have a wound cavity that starts small, gets bigger(main damage) and gets small again for the majority of the penitration...Im thinking the longer and deeper the main wound channel is the better, even if the bullet exits and berries deep into the ground...there a few trends over the last 100 years that tend to reflect this....this is just a theory of course but something to consider if your into that kinda thing

Hope this helps

 

[MesaHorseCo.]

They are just tough. Some seem to be tougher than others. There are so many variables that we can't figure all of them. A few years ago I watched a bull in my spotting scope get shot at close range with a muzzleloader, he walked clear across the drainage and up and over the other side. I could see where he was hit, and it was what many would consider a perfect killing shot. The gentleman that shot him never found him, but there is no way the bull didn't die eventually. Most bulls getting killed here (in Colorado) are younger class bulls and may not have the same amount of "toughness" as older, bigger bulls. I watched a 340ish bull this year take 2 good hits before he hit the ground. Upon hitting the ground he was crawling for about 100 yards across the alpine before he snapped his own front leg in half. He could no longer crawl, but was still trying. At this point I was able to walk up to him and put a final shot in him. Bigger bulls have some fight in them, no matter what you are shooting them with. 4 good hits on this bull (2 to get him on the ground, 1 while he was crawling, and one point blank). They are just tough. like many have said, empty the rifle. This scenario made me question my own caliber and bullet choice. Then I remembered how many bulls I have shot in years past with the same setup and concluded my setup is just fine. Although unfortunate, a hunter can do everything right and still find themselves in less than ideal situations, such as losing a critter.

 

[wyosam]

Exit wounds are only needed for tracking jobs and social media pictures.

The expansion is dogshit compared to a frangible bullet.

Drt or close is always preferable.

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I’ve yet to see an animal take a step post Hammer. To call the expansion of these bullets “dog shit” only shows you have no idea what you’re talking about.


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[el_jefe_pescado]

“...I don’t understand the shot was perfect.”

-every hunter after three hours on a pin prick blood trail...

I think we can all agree that eliminating ego is a much more difficult proposition than selecting a bullet, caliber or arrow weight.


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[scooter25]

I use Federal Copper 165gr in my 300WSM. I was able to recover my bullet from the elk I shot last year. The elk was quartering away withs its head down feeding at 370yds. The impact was about mid body and I recovered the bullet in the jaw. the expansion was perfect on it. You should also check the ballistics on your bullets. A heavier bullet isn't always caring more energy. The federal trophy coppers 165gr I use carries more energy and speed than the 180gr right out of the barrel out to 900yds at 8000' elevation. I started using these rounds 2 years ago and have killed 3 antelope 2 deer and 2 elk all with one shot at ranges from 200yds to 550yds. I believe these are Nosler e-tips and if I can ever get my hands on them i'll start reloading them. I have nothing but good experiences with them.

 

[roosiebull]

today i saw a first.... more gun would have made a difference........ i think

270wsm, range about 150yds, 5pt roosie. bullet hit bottom of spine, and looks like pretty much came apart (if not bigger cartridge, bullet construction may have helped) the bullet didn't make it through the spine, looks like maybe just the jacket or part of the bullet deflected down and took out one lung, the other part exited back strap and made a hell of a mess with blood shot running down the other side really bad.

it took us awhile to loop around to him, it was probably a good 30 minutes, and he was still alive... though down for the count. the entrance was below vertebrae line, but mostly deflected up and came apart. i can only think a heavier bullet with similar velocity would have powered through, and dropped that bull.... maybe just a tougher bullet would have.

the bullet looked like it caught the top of a rib and most of the bullet rode up. light fast bullets do weird stuff

had the shot been lower, it wouldn't have mattered of course

 

[wyosam]

today i saw a first.... more gun would have made a difference........ i think

270wsm, range about 150yds, 5pt roosie. bullet hit bottom of spine, and looks like pretty much came apart (if not bigger cartridge, bullet construction may have helped) the bullet didn't make it through the spine, looks like maybe just the jacket or part of the bullet deflected down and took out one lung, the other part exited back strap and made a hell of a mess with blood shot running down the other side really bad.

it took us awhile to loop around to him, it was probably a good 30 minutes, and he was still alive... though down for the count. the entrance was below vertebrae line, but mostly deflected up and came apart. i can only think a heavier bullet with similar velocity would have powered through, and dropped that bull.... maybe just a tougher bullet would have.

the bullet looked like it caught the top of a rib and most of the bullet rode up. light fast bullets do weird stuff

had the shot been lower, it wouldn't have mattered of course

Out of curiosity, what was the bullet?


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[roosiebull]

Out of curiosity, what was the bullet?


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i believe a federal fusion but cannot confirm.

if so, i have had 2 of them not work well at close range out of a kimber hunter i had for a short time in 7-08. one was a coyote, while calling lions, and it was maybe 5yds... shot in the scapula.... i missed his buddy a couple times as he ran through the cut full speed.... went to go find the first one and he was sitting down, bullet never penetrated the body cavity, and a little 20lb animal needed a follow up shot

next one was a lion, 34yds, he was sneaking back away from the call, going up a really steep bank, shot angle like shooting down from a tree stand, i held right behind the shoulders going into the vitals (should have exited heart area) lion fell, rolling around and growling, then went silent after a few seconds

next thing i know, it's trotting out of the salmon berry and down into either a swamp in the bottom full of head high brush (mostly cut grass) and dog hair reprod on both sides.... long story short, regardless of not wanting to look for a lion in stuff i can't see one in (not knowing if it was dead or alive) i looked until dark... came back the next day with my shotgun full of buck shot, looked for 8hrs grid searching the whole area with my gps using track lines to cover everything.... not a single drop or smear of blood anywhere with the entrance in the top of the back.... i came back every day for 6 days, starting above the drainage looking and listening for birds, then dropping in and looking some more.... the 6th evening i had to head out of town to work, and i was gonna put a camera in there to see if that cat comes back by at some point, that was one border of it's home range, so i see sign or get t cam pics every 12-20 days of that cat.... dropped in to put up a cam and flushed a couple buzzards, one wouldn't leave, and i walked out and found the cat right below that snag. there was a little 10ft island in that swamp i didn't know was there, and that's where the cat was, laying on that little island in the 7' saw grass.... i had track lines all around it, as close as 11ft. no exit, wound on top, zero blood and lions don't leave tracks unless it's soft visible ground..... i was happy to close that chapter but bummed i lost that cat.... lions are soft, i didn't hit anything very hard, a 7-08 isn't a fast moving bullet, no exit didn't make sense for a cat with a 140gr bullet.... that was the last time i shot those bullets.

they shot well out of a couple of my rifles, but that was enough for me. now i have one more reason to not like them

 

[wyosam]

Interesting! Built to open rapidly, but seem like they should retain enough to get to the goods, especially on coyotes and cats!


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[WRO]

I’ve yet to see an animal take a step post Hammer. To call the expansion of these bullets “dog shit” only shows you have no idea what you’re talking about.


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I wasn't referring to the hammers or cutting edge lasers, both of which drop petals (shed 30-40% of their bullet weight) and create massive damage which is a frangible by definition.

I was referring to traditional monos like barnes or even accubonds..

I'm surprised you don't know how your bullets are constructed.

 

[wyosam]

I wasn't referring to the hammers or cutting edge lasers, both of which drop petals (shed 30-40% of their bullet weight) and create massive damage which is a frangible by definition.

I was referring to traditional monos like barnes or even accubonds..

I'm surprised you don't know how your bullets are constructed.

I am well aware how they are constructed. At this point, blanket statements about monos are no better than blanket statements about lead cores. Big difference between frangible lead, and “frangible” monos. Monos give both devastating expansion and reliable penetration, even through big bone. I never had an issue with the Barnes either, but I didn’t use the earlier versions that were failure prone (which lead to all the distrust of monos). They didn’t have the dramatic impacts of the Hammers, but they performed as designed and gave quick kills.

Hammers and Cutting edge are very much not frangible by definition. Frangible by definition means disintegrate into tiny particles to minimize penetration into other objects. The monos shed a specific predetermined amount of weight, the remaining projectile penetrates. Apples and oranges.

Not sure about the mention of the accubond, which is not a mono in any way.


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[roosiebull]

interesting contrast today... 270win, 150gr power point, shot just above the knuckle, literally the thickest part of the scapula, about 80yds, busted the scapula, took out heart... DRT

wouldn't count on that every time, especially with that bullet, but it made quick work of a small roosie bull. leg was just flopping around.