2 lost elk and conclusions.

[Hoodie]

As yet another N=1 anecdote, I shot my first elk this year. Bedded cow at 205 yards with a 6.5 CM and 143 ELD-X. She was DRT. I shot her again as fast as I could work the bolt, having heard the horror stories of people reluctant to fire follow-up shots. Probably unnecessary, but I don't regret it. I lost some backstrap meat due to the slightly upward angle of the shot, but I'm planning on using the same load next year.

The bullet stopped on the far side and the vitals were essentially jelly. I'm sure a mono would've resulted in less meat loss but it's hard for me to ignore results like that. I can't imagine a 270 with a slightly tougher bullet to compensate for the additional velocity would've performed worse.

I like the 6.5 because, like a lot of folks mention, it facilitates range time. I also keep it under 300 yards and won't take anything but a broadside or slight quartering away shot, just behind the shoulder. Basically the shot placement you'd want for an arrow. To be comfortable with something like a hard quartering-to shot I'd want a .30 with something along the lines of a partition I guess.

 

[wyosam]

I’ve been involved with lead free initiatives since before any hunter had heard of it. This is the exact same thing as masks and COVID. I’ve done this enough to know that the likelihood of someone having an objective fact based discussion online about this subject is nearly zero.
I do not care if you use lead free or lead. I do care about facts and agendas that are pushed. I shoot more lead free projectiles a year by orders of magnitude than lead projectiles. Nearly 100% of meat consumed in my house is killed and butchered by us. We average just under two meals a day with red meat killed by lead projectiles (yes we’ve don’t the math). I have to get my blood checked multiple
times a year.

Reality

1). There have been no RCT’s conducted on lead versus non lead in game meat, consumption, and subsequent risks to any population.

2). Several of the “research” projects that have been used to show risk with lead projectiles had extremely questionable conduct during the studies- as in putting the entire animal into burger with no trimming being conducted, pictures of carcasses that were radiographed with artificially introduced lead fragments throughout the animal “as an example” and then using those pictures as proof of lead contamination, etc., etc.

3). Most all of the studies done have been funded by, or encouraged by groups that are not hunting/shooting friendly. It goes well beyond hunting community.

4). Elevated blood lead levels come from aerosolized lead styphnate (primers) not game meat. Only one study (Italy) has looked at this and tried to be objective. Hunters had the same lead levels as wine drinkers, yet consumers of game meat- but not hunters, had no elevated lead levels compared to the control group.

5). Even extremely fragmenting lead bullets have the fragments contained to with 4-6inches of the wound, and then only when major bones are hit.

6). Current lead free bullets kill slower than, and have more failures to perform, even in properly conducted ballistic testing than lead bullets.

If you want to shoot lead free no problem. But at least be honest about it and acknowledge that the push for lead free is not on the up and up.

Not even going to bother with the science denying. You do you. I will say that there never will be an RCT on lead consumption, because no IRB will ever approve a study where humans are intentionally fed meat with lead in it. To do so would be unethical, and quite stupid.

#6 has no basis in facts. Maybe with PAST lead free ammunition. Maybe. The term current to me would mean the more recently developed projectiles from Hammer, cutting edge and others. Unless gravity somehow pulls them to the ground faster with lead bullets, “die slower” has no basis in fact. These “current” monos more often than not result in DRT. Eat all the lead you want, not my problem.

Are you saying you have your blood checked multiple times a year for lead levels?


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[Formidilosus]

#6 has no basis in facts. Maybe with PAST lead free ammunition. Maybe. The term current to me would mean the more recently developed projectiles from Hammer, cutting edge and others. Unless gravity somehow pulls them to the ground faster with lead bullets, “die slower” has no basis in fact. These “current” monos more often than not result in DRT. Eat all the lead you want, not my problem.

Please show wound channels from Hammers or CE’s that match frangible lead core bullets.

The more tissue destroyed, the faster animals die given non CNS hits. Neither Hammers, nor CE, nor any other commercially available lead free bullet creates as wide a wound as a Berger VLD, ELD-M, etc. Fragmenting monos are improvements in that regard, but they are not even close to what frangible lead bullets can do.

“DRT” is a vague term that has no real meaning anymore. People use it for everything from instant incapacitation from spinal impacts, all the way to “I shot him, he stood there for 30 seconds then fell over. DRT!”

How many medium to big game animals have you shot, or been directly witness to, when using monos that were true DRT when not impacting the spinal cord or other parts of the central nervous system? DRT as in “impact, fell immediately without hesitation and with no leg movement”.

Are you saying you have your blood checked multiple times a year for lead levels?
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Yes.

 

[Str8shooter]

If you can shoot where you aim, shoot barnes ttsx or lrx, they expand at 1800fps and drive deeper than lead and plain kill game ( look up any african hunting forums, small-for-caliber fast shooting copper bullets simply wreck giant animals) . If you can believe that consumption of lead (particularly for children and pregnant women) is just fine, and all the pictures showing Xrays of lead frags traveling FEET away from the wound channel, and studies linking lead bullets used in hunting to elevated blood lead levels in humans, and lead poisoning in raptors, foxes and other scavengers is all BS, shoot fragmenting lead bullets and eat away...just dont share it with me...or tell me you care about wildlife conservation.

 

[wyosam]

I’ve been direct witness over the last couple years to 6 elk, a handful of deer and antelope, and also several mountain goats (Teton park cull) shot with hammers that I loaded for myself and others. The vast majority from light cartridges such as the 6.5 CM, 260 rem, 7-08, and .243 win. Other than one cow this year that walked/rolled about 30 feet, all of those fell in their tracks, without enough movement after the shot to warrant a follow up, and I come from the “keep shooting until they are done” school of though. The wound channels on smaller game are actually more than I would like to see- My neighbor shot a couple antelope one day with his CM that had 3” + primary exits, with other exits from petals. Lungs were literal mush, with a lot of tissue blown out the exit. One mature bull elk taken with a 124 HH from a 260, shot quartering away, similar 3-4” complete destruction channel started just inside the onside rib cage, lungs again gelled, broke the offside shoulder at mid shaft humerus, and exited. Fell in its tracks, laid his head down after about 5 seconds, no further movement. Goats all either fell in their tracks, or fell then rolled. Several of those were less than ideal shot angles like quartering to that were taken only because of the unique objective of that “hunt”. All goats recovered (1 was not) had the same mush for lungs, a long way from the main channel of complete destruction. The only non-exit was a cow shot quartering away at longer distance than I would have shot with a 6.5cm, slightly quartering away. That was the cow mentioned that did travel under her own power a little. It was a shot that I was surprised she didn’t fall at the shot, as it broke both shoulders. That bullet was recovered under the hide on the offside, though one petal strayed enough to miss the offside shoulder and exited. Two broken shoulders and a drop at the shot, roll but no purposeful movement on a large mule deer with an 88 grain bullet from a 243. That one surprised me, as it isn’t even particularly fast from an 18” barrel, and was a mild load (sub 2950ish, if I recall). A couple of cow elk that were hit a little high that had CNS hits from petals, and otherwise lethal damage, but hard to say for certain they would have been immediate drops without the CNS damage. 1 young bull with a 30-30 win, I think that is a 134 grain hammer at just under 2400. Shot was probably 50 yards or so, spine hit just ahead of the shoulder. Running shot with a tumble and no further movement. Definitely dead when we walked up to very shortly after. Took a large chunk of spine, trachea, and large vessels. So yes, several the immediate incapacitation shots were CNS damage, but many were not.

Great results whether through the shoulder or behind it. Probably would have had similar results from Bergers or ELDm type bullets on many of those, but I’d question getting to the goods on a quartering to shot on a goat (depending on cartridge and range). I’d be really surprised to see eldms reliably break shoulders and get into the boiler room, and shocked if they broke an offside shoulder particularly on shorter range shots before they’ve bled off some speed. A wound channel from the same hammer bullet looks remarkably similar with a short range impact from a 6.5 PRC compared to a 300 yard shot from a creedmoor. There is zero chance of pancaking one on a shoulder.

I think the modern monos are way more versatile than frangible lead. Those lead bullets can give very dramatic kills, but I don’t have any interest in asking questions like “am I too close”? Or “can I get through that shoulder before it comes apart?” This is the golden age of bullets, there are a ton of great ones. I love the way ELDms fly, especially considering how cheap they are. I shoot 1000’s of them a year in a slew of calibers, just not at game.

I don’t know if you have seen the wound channels from hammers, but they are really impressive. Particularly when you can see where the petals left the main channel, yet it is still a huge path of distruction left from a barely-larger-than caliber square nose shank driving through tissue. I didn’t really believe their claims until I started seeing it with my own eyes. They punch way above their weight class.


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[Elkangle]

Hammer wound channel...I did not trim this hole...this is how it was off the elk...you can see the bone fragments that still need to be removed

 

[wyosam]

That is pretty consistent with what I’ve seen, though more dramatic in less dense tissue like lung.


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[roosiebull]

I’ve been direct witness over the last couple years to 6 elk, a handful of deer and antelope, and also several mountain goats (Teton park cull) shot with hammers that I loaded for myself and others. The vast majority from light cartridges such as the 6.5 CM, 260 rem, 7-08, and .243 win. Other than one cow this year that walked/rolled about 30 feet, all of those fell in their tracks, without enough movement after the shot to warrant a follow up, and I come from the “keep shooting until they are done” school of though. The wound channels on smaller game are actually more than I would like to see- My neighbor shot a couple antelope one day with his CM that had 3” + primary exits, with other exits from petals. Lungs were literal mush, with a lot of tissue blown out the exit. One mature bull elk taken with a 124 HH from a 260, shot quartering away, similar 3-4” complete destruction channel started just inside the onside rib cage, lungs again gelled, broke the offside shoulder at mid shaft humerus, and exited. Fell in its tracks, laid his head down after about 5 seconds, no further movement. Goats all either fell in their tracks, or fell then rolled. Several of those were less than ideal shot angles like quartering to that were taken only because of the unique objective of that “hunt”. All goats recovered (1 was not) had the same mush for lungs, a long way from the main channel of complete destruction. The only non-exit was a cow shot quartering away at longer distance than I would have shot with a 6.5cm, slightly quartering away. That was the cow mentioned that did travel under her own power a little. It was a shot that I was surprised she didn’t fall at the shot, as it broke both shoulders. That bullet was recovered under the hide on the offside, though one petal strayed enough to miss the offside shoulder and exited. Two broken shoulders and a drop at the shot, roll but no purposeful movement on a large mule deer with an 88 grain bullet from a 243. That one surprised me, as it isn’t even particularly fast from an 18” barrel, and was a mild load (sub 2950ish, if I recall). A couple of cow elk that were hit a little high that had CNS hits from petals, and otherwise lethal damage, but hard to say for certain they would have been immediate drops without the CNS damage. 1 young bull with a 30-30 win, I think that is a 134 grain hammer at just under 2400. Shot was probably 50 yards or so, spine hit just ahead of the shoulder. Running shot with a tumble and no further movement. Definitely dead when we walked up to very shortly after. Took a large chunk of spine, trachea, and large vessels. So yes, several the immediate incapacitation shots were CNS damage, but many were not.

Great results whether through the shoulder or behind it. Probably would have had similar results from Bergers or ELDm type bullets on many of those, but I’d question getting to the goods on a quartering to shot on a goat (depending on cartridge and range). I’d be really surprised to see eldms reliably break shoulders and get into the boiler room, and shocked if they broke an offside shoulder particularly on shorter range shots before they’ve bled off some speed. A wound channel from the same hammer bullet looks remarkably similar with a short range impact from a 6.5 PRC compared to a 300 yard shot from a creedmoor. There is zero chance of pancaking one on a shoulder.

I think the modern monos are way more versatile than frangible lead. Those lead bullets can give very dramatic kills, but I don’t have any interest in asking questions like “am I too close”? Or “can I get through that shoulder before it comes apart?” This is the golden age of bullets, there are a ton of great ones. I love the way ELDms fly, especially considering how cheap they are. I shoot 1000’s of them a year in a slew of calibers, just not at game.

I don’t know if you have seen the wound channels from hammers, but they are really impressive. Particularly when you can see where the petals left the main channel, yet it is still a huge path of distruction left from a barely-larger-than caliber square nose shank driving through tissue. I didn’t really believe their claims until I started seeing it with my own eyes. They punch way above their weight class.


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i'm intrigued! i like soft bullets for hunting lions, just due to making a mess of them and not wanting to track them far in the brush, but that potentially limits my shots. been shooting match kings in my AR, but would like a bullet that holds together and makes a mess for that purpose.... most shots are quartering to and close, and you can't really wait for a good angle.... they are just too sneaky, and if they want to vanish they will right now.... when they are close enough to see and shoot, they are almost close enough to see it's a trick.

sounds like some hammers in my 6.5 is something i need to try. i switched to an AR so i can stay on target and keep killing them.

 

[Islandchanel]

Man what a bummer.

 

[Elkangle]

That is pretty consistent with what I’ve seen, though more dramatic in less dense tissue like lung.


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Yeah the soft tissue damage is very impressive..that was part of the hind ham after going through some very hard bone...I pulled out the heart of a deer yesterday that was literally flat ?? Like it was deflated? The hammer hit above the heart but the expansion did a number...amazing how hard that deer hit the dirt

I have some cool video of a caribou getting absolutely clobbered but Idk bout posting it lol not exactly PC

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t know if you have seen the wound channels from hammers, but they are really impressive. Particularly when you can see where the petals left the main channel, yet it is still a huge path of distruction left from a barely-larger-than caliber square nose shank driving through tissue. I didn’t really believe their claims until I started seeing it with my own eyes. They punch way above their weight class.

I am familiar with Hammers. Yes, they do much better than conventional monos. No, they are not even close to what the same weight lead bullets can do. Thank you for providing the info on your experience with them. I mean this in the most honest way possible; that is a small data set of animals to be so confident in what to expect. How many animals have you killed with equivalent Berger and ELD-M’s?

View attachment 233884

Hammer wound channel...I did not trim this hole...this is how it was off the elk...you can see the bone fragments that still need to be removed

Bullet and impact speed?

 

[wyosam]

I am familiar with Hammers. Yes, they do much better than conventional monos. No, they are not even close to what the same weight lead bullets can do. Thank you for providing the info on your experience with them. I mean this in the most honest way possible; that is a small data set of animals to be so confident in what to expect. How many animals have you killed with equivalent Berger and ELD-M’s?








Bullet and impact speed?

I have shot zero animals with Bergers or ELDMs. I’ve seen a few shot with them, and while a few had dramatic drops (as one expects with a frangible bullet dumping all its energy at once). My neighbor that had a lot of success on the goat cull was a die hard Berger fan, but needed a mono for that hunt, and the Barnes factory offerings weren’t getting him the accuracy he wanted. We worked him up a hammer load, and he was blown away with the performance on game. He’d never had a failure with the Bergers, but liked the fact that he still got massive damage, but so far has noticed less distant meat loss. He’s a tough one to judge a bullet by, because he is exceptional at putting them exactly where he wants on game. Combination of skill and patience. As for the ELDm, I’ve seen a few kills, and several failures (one eventually recovered, one lost). The failure that was found was definitely a failure to get past the shoulder on a cow elk. 7 rem mag, short range- inside 200. Fell hard at the shot, got up and took off over a ridge. Managed to catch up to it bedded a couple hours later and finished it. Broke the heck out of the shoulder, but never entered the chest. My best guess is the the one that was lost was a similar situation, but without recovery its only assumption. Saw one fail on a shiras moose (30-06). Attempted quartering to at about 50 yards. Second shot killed it, but the first never entered the chest, just destroyed the shoulder. Getting into the lighter side, but have seen several failures to penetrate from a 22-250 on antelope and deer. My personally viewed sample on hammers is small, I just started loading them last year. I expect to see continued good performance from them, but then I never had any trouble with the Barnes or Hornady monos I loaded before that. They worked differently, but I never had one not work as designed.

My only personal experience with a bullet not designed to exit on game was a Ballistic Tip many years ago. They shot great from my rifle, so I decided to hunt with them. I shot a muley with one, and while it fell, I wasn’t impressed. I guess there is something to say about a quartering away shot that doesn’t wreck the offside shoulder, but knowing it never got there told me all I needed to know about shooting that bullet at elk. I like tough bullets that drive through animals. Before I switched to monos, I shot mostly partitions or a-frames. Never had an issue with those either. I have no doubt the frangibles work well most of the time, but I’m as likely to shoot an elk at 50 yards as I am 400, and I don’t trust them going that fast.

I trust the hammers with my small sample size, because it is consistent with what a lot of people are seeing. Between that and the fact that the manufacturing process leaves very little chance of inconsistency, I have no reason to expect them to perform differently than what I’ve seen.


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[Formidilosus]

I have shot zero animals with Bergers or ELDMs.

I’ve shot, and seen shot hundreds with them. Between hunting, crop damage and depredations, we’re in the multiples of hundreds. Same for monos including frangible lead free.
Given bullets of equal weight, there is no comparison between them in tissue damage. A bullet can not at the same time cause less meat damage, and kill as quickly. More tissue destroyed, faster deaths.
The Hammers may perform satisfactory for you (and for most I’m sure) but to say that there is no difference in tissue destruction and hence speed of death is incorrect and easily shown.
Frangible monos at relatively close ranges have closed the gap a bit on lead bullets for sure. But when impact velocity gets closer to 2,000fps there are large differences in wound channels. The tissue damage in the picture above is decent, but I can show the same from a moose this fall from a 223.

I don’t know where all these bullets are that won’t penetrate 4” of muscle and a thin piece of bone, and I’m not saying that your didn’t, but in the hundreds of medium and large game from antelope to moose, I have never seen a viable bullet stopped by a scapula. We have never lost an animal or had a rodeo due to insufficient penetration, but have due to small wound channels and poor placement.

Again, I’m happy Hammers are working for you, and I hope they continue to. I have no desire to convince you or anyone else what bullet to use, but I do have a desire for factual data to be presented.

 

[Marble]

The picture of radiological image of a deer shot with a bullet, and the lead that spread throughout the body was a created image.

People viewed it and believed it was real. It had been spread through out the internet as gospel and its sad.



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[Elkangle]

Bullet and impact speed?

166 hammer going relatively fast...impact was prolly north of 2700 fps...

I will 2nd the idea of hammers not being long range bullets...I believe they work best with velocity...luckily majority of hunting is well with in those ranges

Off the top of my head I've had two situations where a berger and a eld x failed deliver its energy into the goods...both nice bulls..both died so was able to see what happened ...I have more experience with bergers than any other bullets and it sure seems the impact of a hammer is more dramatic than a berger

Especially on deer sized game

It would be cool to butcher an animal and have different guys explain what they think is going on as the bullet travels through an animal...because I think thats partially the reason for the discrepancy of good performance

 

[Elkangle]

I should just start taking pictures of the entrance and exits of the different bullets on critters coming through the cooler...for science

 

[wyosam]

The picture of radiological image of a deer shot with a bullet, and the lead that spread throughout the body was a created image.

People viewed it and believed it was real. It had been spread through out the internet as gospel and its sad.



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How about the radiographic images of meat packaged by multiple different processors?


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[Marble]

How about the radiographic images of meat packaged by multiple different processors?


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I dont know about those. But I'm suspect of stuff like that. But I don't have any knowledge of it.

I belong to a conservation organization and we have our own lawyer. We spoke at length just after the laws were passed in CA regarding lead and the upcoming possibilities of overturning the law. I was really concerned about lead and the dangers. I learned the two total lies were the health benefit and saving condors.

The image of the deer was literally a photoshop type image to depict what an animal looks like after being shot with lead. It wasn't real. And during the hearings it was discussed that it wasn't an actual depiction of an animal with lead in it.

The second interesting point, which I didn't know, the lead condors die from is not even the type of lead found in bullets. Where it comes from is a big question. The scientists can't figure out where it comes from. But it isn't bullets. If it has been discovered, I haven't heard yet.

This isn't to say lead isn't poisonous. Or that lead doesn't kill other animals or isn't bad for us. It is bad for us. But the assumption it kills people, or harms them, by possibly eating it in animals they've killed is debatable.

I use both lead and nonlead bullets. I prefer the lead based bullets, but have had good success with the copper too. I've found them to fuxmnction and perform well, but be a little more temperamental reloading them.

I'm not a crazy denier or nonbeliever in science. But I am someone who is very suspect of people passing laws regarding hunting that are created, supported and funded by people who are against hunting in anyway. Which is exactly what happened when the law was passed here.

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[trophyhill]

i shot a doe several years ago with a sierra match in 270 and it didn’t make it past the shoulder. it was a 130 grain sierra. i tracked that doe for 2 miles before i got a shot to finish her off.

this was 20 years ago and not a heavy for caliber bullet like the eld or bergers we shoot these days. that said, i can’t see anyone choosing a match over a bonded bullet like an accubond unless your shooting at very long distance, which i do occasionally.

i get that they are accurate, but so are bonded bullets. my accubond hand loads are just as accurate as my bergers for my long range rig.

to each their own but after trying both, i prefer the bonded construction over match.

i live in hawaii and have access to private property where i deer and pig hunt. i kill well over 40 deer and 20 pigs a year. i’ve got some experience with the accubonds and i would hunt with them over elds and bergers at ranges less than 400 yards. over 400 yards, there is a case to be made for ELDs and Bergers.

just my opinion so don’t get all butt hurt if you don’t agree...

match bullets are for long range hunting only in my book.


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Monos were around before the lead bans. Infact Barnes supported the California bans.

I wouldn't call monos superior to traditional bullets for a bunch of reasons. Superior in certain niches, yes.

From what I’ve been reading, match bullets are for “long range target shooting” that have been marketed for “long range hunting”. Because of the nature of the bullet construction with such a thin jacket, why would anyone take the chance on only wounding the animal? I would think a Barnes, Partition, Aframe or Accubonds would be much better suited due to weight retention alone.

 

[204guy]

From what I’ve been reading, match bullets are for “long range target shooting” that have been marketed for “long range hunting”. Because of the nature of the bullet construction with such a thin jacket, why would anyone take the chance on only wounding the animal? I would think a Barnes, Partition, Aframe or Accubonds would be much better suited due to weight retention alone.

Weight retention isn't the end all in making wound channels, if it was all we'd be shooting is fmj. High weight retention pretty much guarantees smaller wounds vs. fragmenting.

"Match bullets" covers a heck of a lot of projectiles just like "hunting bullets" does. Some are best suited for pretty specific situations some pretty good all-rounders. There still isn't a bullet that covers all situations best. Probably never will be.

Wife and I have killed 7 animals with match bullets so far this year. 40-500 yds. .308 155 scenar x3, .264 123 scenar, .284 180 scenar and .224 75 amax x2. They are all quite dead. No drama.

I havent seen it discussed yet but there's always the option of having a hard bullet as the first round then a longer range soft rounds. Cycle out the hard round if a longer range shot is what's presented. This assumes they shoot to a similar zero.