1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[RockAndSage]

I'll just take a pic for you (I work at the store). It's the CCO 9LW model.

I didn't know Ed Brown was building 1911s with external extractors now - that's great to see.

 

[Lonewolf72]

Oooooo

I wasn't in on one of these at it's regular retail price ($1100-1200?), but I think Springfield has been closing this line out for awhile now, so deals can be found. Seems nicely put-together with a smooth, tightly-fitted slide and barrel with no rattling. I like the aggressive front/backstrap and thin VG grips. Hopefully, she's a shooter. Figured this was a good place for me to start rather than going Turkish. Would like to add a magwell.

 

[Formidilosus]

I didn't know Ed Brown was building 1911s with external extractors now - that's great to see.

More than that. They also have sections of the frame rails removed to lower friction and increase slide velocity for 9mm. A really well designed pistol. If they had classical slide serrations and 20lpi checkering I’d have one.

 

[Formidilosus]

Is this an actual thing,

I wish.

or is it what you call a certain kind of precision at-speed you train for?

This. Think shooting a USPSA match but only taking head shots- and trying to win doing so. Or if USPSA was scored as 5 points for A zone, 1 point for C zone, -5 points for D zone, -30 points for a miss, and a match DQ for hitting a no shoot.

Any specific drills or standards for it you'd share?

The FBI bullseye course at 290’ish points or higher, Bill drills to the head with no misses allowed. The No Fail Drill posted is good. Basically surgically shooting 4-6” targets from contact to 25+ yards as fast as possible, where misses are not allowed.


My choice in carry pistol is based on an absolute no fail scenario: what is the max distance that you would take a shot at right now, on an 8” target with the thing you love most 1” from it. Whatever pistol has the longest range- that’s the one to carry.

For examples, for me right now:

Glock 19 or 17, Gen 3/4= 16 yards.

G19 or 17 gen 5 or M models= 25 yards.

Sig M18/17= 22-24 yards.

Tricked out Sig M18/17= 26-27 yards.

Staccato P= 32’ish yards

Springfield Pro/custom 1911 9mm that I’m currently carrying= 40+ yards.


I might have posted this before- this was last July during a training day. Over 160 rounds fired in 10 round strings from 25 yards, some were timed, some not, two handed freestyle, as well as left and right hand only: no misses. Springfield Professional.

 

[kad11]

One issue with this Kimber 2k11 is she doesn't like to chamber hollow points off a full mag. If only load 18 she does ok.
Ordered a Taran Tactical check mate 20 rounder. No issues whatsoever. But the Check Mate mags that make with the gun seem to sit the first round a little funky.
No issues with ball ammo.

So looks like I'll buy another $100 TT mag for carry.

The Springfield prodigy 26 rounder worked great at the range. A cheaper option for fun.

Red dirt trigger came in this week.
MJD grip comes Monday and my lighter mag release spring comes this next week too. We'll see if this Glock window licker can break down a 1911 and put it back together properly. I'm a little nervous.

Any thoughts for a ambi safety for small hands and short thumbs? I want to try a wider one. But I'm worried because they all say "minor fitment required". How bad can it be?

I put an ambi safety in my Bul Armory 1911 a few weeks ago. This was my first go at installing a new safety and it wasn't difficult - just go slow on the filing and check fitment often.

 

[RockAndSage]

They also have sections of the frame rails removed to lower friction and increase slide velocity for 9mm.

That's some of the coolest gun design news I've heard in quite awhile.

 

[RockAndSage]

I wish.




This. Think shooting a USPSA match but only taking head shots- and trying to win doing so. Or if USPSA was scored as 5 points for A zone, 1 point for C zone, -5 points for D zone, -30 points for a miss, and a match DQ for hitting a no shoot.




The FBI bullseye course at 290’ish points or higher, Bill drills to the head with no misses allowed. The No Fail Drill posted is good. Basically surgically shooting 4-6” targets from contact to 25+ yards as fast as possible, where misses are not allowed.


My choice in carry pistol is based on an absolute no fail scenario: what is the max distance that you would take a shot at right now, on an 8” target with the thing you love most 1” from it. Whatever pistol has the longest range- that’s the one to carry.

For examples, for me right now:

Glock 19 or 17, Gen 3/4= 16 yards.

G19 or 17 gen 5 or M models= 25 yards.

Sig M18/17= 22-24 yards.

Tricked out Sig M18/17= 26-27 yards.

Staccato P= 32’ish yards

Springfield Pro/custom 1911 9mm that I’m currently carrying= 40+ yards.


I might have posted this before- this was last July during a training day. Over 160 rounds fired in 10 round strings from 25 yards, some were timed, some not, two handed freestyle, as well as left and right hand only: no misses. Springfield Professional.
View attachment 1048997

So, no sh*t, this is just about the best pistol-performance post I've ever read on a forum, if someone actually cares about realities in stopping threats with handguns. And I can hear the howls of outraged derision from half the "tactical" instructor and gun-nerd worlds from here. It's...beautiful.

The capability differences in the different models was particularly illuminating. It makes sense anecdotally, but man, what a great way to slay sacred cows by gathering that much personal-experience data by platform.

Your post reminds me of that no-fail Bill Drill eval you suggested a few weeks back, where a miss or going over time had career-ending consequences. Makes me wonder if something like this could be added to the no-fail Bill Drill eval. Someone claiming competence with a handgun gets asked for their no-fail Bill time, as well as both their time and max distance for 10rds on a 4 or 6 inch target, and then have to do it cold, on-demand. That's a pretty hard-core, well balanced pair of evals that would sober up a hell of a lot of people. If nothing else, it sets a standard of knowing one's own no-fail limitations, in a very objective and measurable way.

 

[Fatcamp]

That USPSA scoring would be a hoot.

We have played around with our pistols waaaay out there on badlands formations. It's actually pretty amazing at how far a pistol bullet will fly accurately.

For sure, at 150 yards a Glock will hit a man size target with every shot. The idea that putting a little distance between you and a shooter makes you safe is false. It sure changed my view on it anyway.

 

[Formidilosus]

So, no sh*t, this is just about the best pistol-performance post I've ever read on a forum, if someone actually cares about realities in stopping threats with handguns. And I can hear the howls of outraged derision from half the "tactical" instructor and gun-nerd worlds from here. It's...beautiful.

Haha. I’m “loved” everywhere I go. “Tactical” to the gamers, and “gamer” to the tactical guys.

The capability differences in the different models was particularly illuminating. It makes sense anecdotally, but man, what a great way to slay sacred cows by gathering that much personal-experience data by platform.

Oh yeah. People that say things like “I shoot x well”… yeah ok. What does that mean?

If someone is truly competent they can shoot all of them to a high level… but the performance on paper and the timer is different for each- for everyone. I knew all of this beforehand, however I had a massive injury a few years ago and had to start all over from ground zero, and the diffence in performance between a good 1911 (in 45 with hot ammo no less) and a 9mm 2011 was dramatic, let alone between a 1911 and a Glock. Months difference of dedicated daily rehab and training time between being actually competent with a 1911 again and being competent with a G19.

Your post reminds me of that no-fail Bill Drill eval you suggested a few weeks back, where a miss or going over time had career-ending consequences. Makes me wonder if something like this could be added to the no-fail Bill Drill eval. Someone claiming competence with a handgun gets asked for their no-fail Bill time, as well as both their time and max distance for 10rds on a 4 or 6 inch target, and then have to do it cold, on-demand. That's a pretty hard-core, well balanced pair of evals that would sober up a hell of a lot of people. If nothing else, it sets a standard of knowing one's own no-fail limitations, in a very objective and measurable way.

Yep. It’s been done exactly like that before.

People need to learn pure speed, and they need to learn pure precision and accuracy- but the bulk of the conditioning should be surgical speed shooting.

 

[Formidilosus]

That USPSA scoring would be a hoot.

There was a match back in the earlier 2000’s that Larue put on that had very heavy penalties for non A zone hits- people hated it because it was a “walking bullseye” match. It was the best scored match ever done. The NRA had TPC matches (3 gun for LE and mil) that used similar scoring, and were good too.

We have played around with our pistols waaaay out there on badlands formations. It's actually pretty amazing at how far a pistol bullet will fly accurately.

For sure, at 150 yards a Glock will hit a man size target with every shot. The idea that putting a little distance between you and a shooter makes you safe is false. It sure changed my view on it anyway.

Oh yeah. Walk backs are fun.

 

[glock233]

I shot practical pistol matches and steel challenges 2x a week for 10 years. The accuracy potential of a 1911 is very high. I’ve just seen way way way too many choke to consider it for a carry gun.

For a carry gun I’m in the “reliability is king” camp, and precision accuracy scenarios beyond 15-20 yards are hypothetical edge cases not worth the capacity and reliability loss.

I think it’s great when guys have their 1911s tuned and running great. That’s never going to be me or 90% of the shooting population.

 

[Hypernatremia]

I shot practical pistol matches and steel challenges 2x a week for 10 years. The accuracy potential of a 1911 is very high. I’ve just seen way way way too many choke to consider it for a carry gun.

For a carry gun I’m in the “reliability is king” camp, and precision accuracy scenarios beyond 15-20 yards are hypothetical edge cases not worth the capacity and reliability loss.

I think it’s great when guys have their 1911s tuned and running great. That’s never going to be me or 90% of the shooting population.

I doubt I have anything close to your round count but for what it's worth...

~1500 rounds through my tisas 1911 9mm with a wilson extractor and I've yet to have a malfunction. At this point I am by far more confident in it's reliability than my glocks. No issues with a wilson mag and a handful of mec-gars

Previous 2 years I daily carried a Glock 20 gen 4 in a owb Safariland. I've had to pitch 3 mags so far for FTF malfunctions and no longer get the warm and fuzzies packing it in the bear woods.

 

[Formidilosus]

I shot practical pistol matches and steel challenges 2x a week for 10 years. The accuracy potential of a 1911 is very high. I’ve just seen way way way too many choke to consider it for a carry gun.

It simply isn’t hard to get 1911’s to run. Now that people are modding/gaming Glocks, they are no better in competition than the modded/gamed out 1911’s with regards to reliability- often worse.

For a carry gun I’m in the “reliability is king” camp, and precision accuracy scenarios beyond 15-20 yards are hypothetical edge cases not worth the capacity and reliability loss.

No, 15-20 yards isn’t edge case at all. The whole “3 yards, 3 seconds, 3 shots” stuff comes from the LEO killed in the line of duty reports- 3 yards isn’t where the shooting starts- or could start from (or be ended at if they had the capability).

The length of two vehicles isn’t edge case. The distance from a gas pump to the front door isn’t either. Pay attention to the distance of an aisle inside a grocery store.

The whole “shootings are close range affairs” is mostly regurgitated nonsense from people that want an excuse to not practice seriously and train. The days of getting mugged are generally over- in this day and age, a middle aged male that is moderately fit isn’t going to get mugged; if he needs a gun it is most likely a mass shooting/“terrorist” event.


But none of that has to due with hitting and missing. Same shooter, same time on both platforms- you miss more at 5 yards with a Glock than you do with a proper 1911. It applies at all ranges.

I think it’s great when guys have their 1911s tuned and running great. That’s never going to be me or 90% of the shooting population.

It takes about 5 minutes with any decently made 1911 to correct/replace an extractor and drop a proper recoil spring in. In 45 auto with good mags, and full power ammo that generally is all that is required now. In 9mm, it depends on whether it has a ramped barrel or not, but still I haven’t needed more than 10-15 minutes on my tailgate to get them running correctly. Use full power ammo, no issues.

This isn’t some bubba shooting 100 rounds saying this- for most of the last 25 years, my pistol consumption has averaged more than 30,000 rounds a year- most years nearly twice that. Generally evenly split between Glocks- and something else. And being around quite a few people doing the same beside me. My 1911’s and 2011’s simply do not malfunction. Those I’m around do not accept malfunctions with theirs. I had and saw far more malfunctions with G19’s with pistol lights than with Staccato P’s during 2019, 2020, and 2021.

I never had problems with reliability and 1911’s- even in places where everyone swore 1911’s couldn’t be kept running and Glocks were the way- and they always would say mine were the only ones they had seen run. Yet everyone that did what I did had the same reliability. But I also always used certain combinations of springs and mags, and did not “game” the guns out. It’s just not hard to get the guns reliable.

 

[glock233]

I doubt I have anything close to your round count but for what it's worth...

~1500 rounds through my tisas 1911 9mm with a wilson extractor and I've yet to have a malfunction. At this point I am by far more confident in it's reliability than my glocks. No issues with a wilson mag and a handful of mec-gars

Previous 2 years I daily carried a Glock 20 gen 4 in a owb Safariland. I've had to pitch 3 mags so far for FTF malfunctions and no longer get the warm and fuzzies packing it in the bear woods.

I’ve had good 1911s too. But it’s temperamental design not fit for mass production. People who deny it are living in an alternate reality.

When you have one working perfectly there’s nothing wrong with them besides weight, crappy mag design, low capacity, ancient feed angle, and manual safeties. Once you overlook those little thighs you’re doing great.

1911s are really tops on triggers and accuracy potential though.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’ve had good 1911s too. But it’s temperamental design not fit for mass production. People who deny it are living in an alternate reality.

Haha. Ok.

When you have one working perfectly there’s nothing wrong with them besides

weight,

Massive benefit to shootability

crappy mag design,

Cold be better, but works fine.

low capacity

11 rounds isn’t “bad”. Nor is 8.

, ancient feed angle,

So?

and manual safeties.

That’s a massive benefit. There is not one logical reason to not have correct manual thumb safeties on pistols.

Once you overlook those little thighs you’re doing great.

Oh they are doing great.

1911s are really tops on triggers and accuracy potential though.

The trigger and Inherent precision are not why they are better in shooting.

 

[RockAndSage]

I’ve just seen way way way too many choke to consider it for a carry gun.

Is this coming from the user-error, can't remember to disengage the safety side, or the guns themselves choking?

I’m in the “reliability is king” camp

I am too - but today's 1911s/2011s are in an entirely different reliability universe than those of the 1990s and early 2000s, especially in 9mm. It's hardly even the same discussion - coming from someone who had a number of custom 1911s made in the 1990s, with very high round counts.

Something nobody ever talks about in terms of "reliability", is how reliably you can perfectly press the trigger on a Glock or other striker gun, under duress, straight back without moving the sights, at speed. In that context, they're very unreliable compared to how reliably you can do so with a 1911. This is a big part of what we call "shootability" - but I never hear anyone talk about how much you can rely on them to help you break off a perfect shot under duress.

The length of two vehicles isn’t edge case. The distance from a gas pump to the front door isn’t either. Pay attention to the distance of an aisle inside a grocery store.

^ This. Same from my bedroom door to the front door.

Too many people buy into the idea that handguns are merely "defensive" for those 3yard situations, etc, or that "the best use of a handgun is to fight your way to a long gun." What matters is being able to end the threat as close to instantly as possible, where you are with what you have.

Most guys would be far better off with their EDC if they approached their handgun training as though it was the only gun they would ever have in their lives to fight with and feed their family, and learn how to run it accordingly. 100yd hits are not that difficult, but it's a mental and conceptual barrier most guys never even consider as being realistic.

But it’s temperamental design not fit for mass production.

Staccato and Kimber's new management might have some evidence to argue otherwise. A big part of modern 1911/2011 reliability is modern tooling. It's doing better work mass-produced than most top gunsmiths were capable of in the 1990s with hand-fitted guns. We're living in a different world today.

 

[glock233]

It simply isn’t hard to get 1911’s to run. Now that people are modding/gaming Glocks, they are no better in competition than the modded/gamed out 1911’s with regards to reliability- often worse.




No, 15-20 yards isn’t edge case at all. The whole “3 yards, 3 seconds, 3 shots” stuff comes from the LEO killed in the line of duty reports- 3 yards isn’t where the shooting starts- or could start from (or be ended at if they had the capability).

The length of two vehicles isn’t edge case. The distance from a gas pump to the front door isn’t either. Pay attention to the distance of an aisle inside a grocery store.

The whole “shootings are close range affairs” is mostly regurgitated nonsense from people that want an excuse to not practice seriously and train. The days of getting mugged are generally over- in this day and age, a middle aged male that is moderately fit isn’t going to get mugged; if he needs a gun it is most likely a mass shooting/“terrorist” event.


But none of that has to due with hitting and missing. Same shooter, same time on both platforms- you miss more at 5 yards with a Glock than you do with a proper 1911. It applies at all ranges.





It takes about 5 minutes with any decently made 1911 to correct/replace an extractor and drop a proper recoil spring in. In 45 auto with good mags, and full power ammo that generally is all that is required now. In 9mm, it depends on whether it has a ramped barrel or not, but still I haven’t needed more than 10-15 minutes on my tailgate to get them running correctly. Use full power ammo, no issues.

This isn’t some bubba shooting 100 rounds saying this- for most of the last 25 years, my pistol consumption has averaged more than 30,000 rounds a year- most years nearly twice that. Generally evenly split between Glocks- and something else. And being around quite a few people doing the same beside me. My 1911’s and 2011’s simply do not malfunction. Those I’m around do not accept malfunctions with theirs. I had and saw far more malfunctions with G19’s with pistol lights than with Staccato P’s during 2019, 2020, and 2021.

I never had problems with reliability and 1911’s- even in places where everyone swore 1911’s couldn’t be kept running and Glocks were the way- and they always would say mine were the only ones they had seen run. Yet everyone that did what I did had the same reliability. But I also always used certain combinations of springs and mags, and did not “game” the guns out. It’s just not hard to get the guns reliable.

You are excellent with quote breakdowns. Me less so. I'll just number my points.

The global disconnect I think is a comparison between what is optimal for power users (you), vs. what I think is generally the best practice for the bottom 99%.

1. The experience of power users that tune their guns is not a realistic look at what typical folks should be doing. It's like talking about ultra marathon running when a guy is asking how to jog better.
2. Certain 1911s can be tuned by changing out a few parts and avoiding light recoiling ammo. But some of them still choke and power users ditch them.
3. The mass shooting / terrorist point is something I'm sure you'd want back. What do you think the ratio of those events to other lawful uses of firearms? By far the most lawful civilian uses of firearms are nothing like what you described. Most are going to be around or in the home, people you know, at the workplace, or random assault type events. Civilian intervention in mass shooting or terrorist events is exceedingly rare compared to the field. We are probably talking about less than a hundred total in the United States this century?


4. You, of all people, know that the problem in a self-defense event will be adrenaline, lack of training, and what's going on between your ears. You also know that far less than 1% of regular gun carriers are even close to ready to perform in those scenarios.
5. This brings up the safety point. You've shot more than me, though my experience with handguns is notable. If you've gone to similar events as me and interacted with the proficient-but-not-good public, I know you watch even experienced shooters sit there and fail to disengage their safeties with the slightest pressure applied to them. For those people---e.g. the vast majority---safeties are a point of failure.
6. 45 1911s are poor in general reliability but I agree with you they are better than 9mm 1911s. But shooters are much slower with full power 45 1911s, when speed of multiple shots on target does matter.
7. I shoot 1911s more accurately than a modern handgun too, so that point is conceded. Both in terms of accuracy potential of the platform and in terms of practical application. There is no debate. A proficient trained shooter firing a 1911 will achieve more and tighter hits at any distance, as far as that point goes. I don't think it's worth the costs.

 

[RockAndSage]

5. This brings up the safety point. You've shot more than me, though my experience with handguns is notable. If you've gone to similar events as me and interacted with the proficient-but-not-good public, I know you watch even experienced shooters sit there and fail to disengage their safeties with the slightest pressure applied to them. For those people---e.g. the vast majority---safeties are a point of failure.

Anyone who can drive a car - especially one with a manual transmission - can consistently and almost sub-consciously disengage a manual safety on the draw.

If they can't do that, they have no business operating a lethal weapon at highway speeds that requires the use of both hands and at least 1 foot in operating 2 pedals and multiple other selector switches on the steering column, while also using mirrors and avoiding other operators and range hazards at the same time.

The manual-safety thing is a non-issue with minimal training.

 

[glock233]

Anyone who can drive a car - especially one with a manual transmission - can consistently and almost sub-consciously disengage a manual safety on the draw.

If they can't do that, they have no business operating a lethal weapon at highway speeds that requires the use of both hands and at least 1 foot in operating 2 pedals and multiple other selector switches on the steering column, while also using mirrors and avoiding other operators and range hazards at the same time.

The manual-safety thing is a non-issue with minimal training.

I think it’s the perfect analogy. Millions cannot drive a manual transmission but are driving anyway.

It’s not a non issue. Failure to disengage a safety is an extremely common failure. You can blame the user if you want. It’s still going to happen every single match.

 

[Bubblehide]

My

I wish.




This. Think shooting a USPSA match but only taking head shots- and trying to win doing so. Or if USPSA was scored as 5 points for A zone, 1 point for C zone, -5 points for D zone, -30 points for a miss, and a match DQ for hitting a no shoot.




The FBI bullseye course at 290’ish points or higher, Bill drills to the head with no misses allowed. The No Fail Drill posted is good. Basically surgically shooting 4-6” targets from contact to 25+ yards as fast as possible, where misses are not allowed.


My choice in carry pistol is based on an absolute no fail scenario: what is the max distance that you would take a shot at right now, on an 8” target with the thing you love most 1” from it. Whatever pistol has the longest range- that’s the one to carry.

For examples, for me right now:

Glock 19 or 17, Gen 3/4= 16 yards.

G19 or 17 gen 5 or M models= 25 yards.

Sig M18/17= 22-24 yards.

Tricked out Sig M18/17= 26-27 yards.

Staccato P= 32’ish yards

Springfield Pro/custom 1911 9mm that I’m currently carrying= 40+ yards.


I might have posted this before- this was last July during a training day. Over 160 rounds fired in 10 round strings from 25 yards, some were timed, some not, two handed freestyle, as well as left and right hand only: no misses. Springfield Professional.
View attachment 1048997

My God, that gun knows how to shoot!