1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[cubdriver84d]

I keep hearing and seeing this. It’s not hard at all to get a 45 auto 5” 1911 to run extremely well- that is 0 malfunctions for thousands of rounds. Staccato’s also are extremely reliable (gen 3 mags with Atlas +18% mag springs, or the C/CS, and HD models). And, I think it’s there or getting there for 9mm 1911’s.

Shoot legit full power 9mm ammo, use good mags- Mecgar 10 rounders seem to have the best design; and tune a Wilson bulletproof extractor. For me the only real question is the recoil spring weight.

Any 2011 mags on the market not need the +18% springs? Have you tried the new(ish) mec-gars?

 

[Formidilosus]

Any 2011 mags on the market not need the +18% springs? Have you tried the new(ish) mec-gars?

I haven’t seen any. Everything of mine gets the +18%.

 

[Bearsniper]

Realistically I’m more of a gun nerd and collector than a shooter, but I’m trying to move the balance more towards shooting and simplify things. At this point I pretty much use Form’s guidance as a starting point, but I like to test everything when possible. I am posting this in case my experience might help others starting to take pistol shooting more seriously like the OP.

I probably get a decent amount of shooting time trying out / testing guns, but never really shoot much outside that. I’ve never shot USPSA, but I shot two local GSSF (Glock) matches in the last 5 years—which I recommend btw— and a couple 3 gun matches 15 years ago.

I can’t afford to keep all these, so this is my attempt to try Form’s 1911/2011 ethos with the hope of settling on one (maybe two) guns to actually practice and get confident with. Trying out guns in the past left me underwhelmed with a Staccato P because I felt like my CZ Shadow 2 Compact performed better for less money, less size, and less weight. But this thread is hard to ignore, and with the Staccato C not long for this world I didn’t want miss my chance at experiencing pistol nirvana due to ignorance.


So I went down the rabbit hole, trying to start out affordably to get my feet wet…you can guess about how that went. Without making this post crazy long, here is what stood out, I don’t know much about 1911s, and I am still trying to learn how to grip a pistol properly. Except for CZ and Glock I already had I had never shot any of the following until a few days ago. I put about 10-20 rounds through each to check function and then went to the FBI test. Weights are with empty mag and trigger was measured with analog Wheeler scale.

 

[Bearsniper]

Tisas W 2# 9.6 oz Trigger 5#


Very smooth slide etc, but long trigger. trigger pull heavy but pretty crisp. Slide to frame fit pretty loose but tolerable. Sights lame 3 dot but usable in good light. Surprised by how smooth the gun’s action was.



Springfield W: 2# 10.7 oz Trigger 4.25#


My attempt at poor man’s Springfield Professional. Trigger maybe creepier and less pleasant than Tisas, safety needs to be blended (painful), slide to frame fit surprisingly super tight, no movement. Sights probably my least favorite, huge fiber optic on front. Came with Pachmyer wrap around grips which I changed to cheap dimple grips for testing consistency.





Kimber DS Warrior: W: 2# even Trigger 4#


This gun feels light, especially for a 5” gun, probably due to its aluminum frame. The grip feels nice and slimmer than the P, more like a 1911. Safety blending could be better. It feels like it might be oversprung or something compared to others—maybe mainspring? Slide to frame fit is extremely tight but smooth—no play up/down or side to side; it's tighter than the Staccato C on par with P. Sights pretty good. Trigger quite nice and will probably get better over time. Pretty nice sights, tritium front, but I prefer the Staccato C sights.


I only shot this gun about 10 times, the Staccato C shot way better even though it is smaller and lighter so I didn’t see a need to put more rounds on this as its going to be sold, and the number of guns to test was already overwhelming. Gun seems promising, but being lightweight and 5” it struggled against the competition here especially given its size/weight. It seemed to jump around or buck more in recoil than the other guns. I would be more interested in this if the Staccato C and CZ shadow 2 compact weren’t such animals. My instinct is that lighter springs might make this gun pretty nice.



Staccato P. W: 2# 7.1 oz Trigger 4.5#


If I had to summarize: Great gun that, for me, is simply outclassed and outperformed by the C. Preferred Kimber's trigger, P is creepy, heavy and the actual trigger wiggles all over the place in its slot-- unpleasant and laughable for the price. Tight slide to frame, tighter than any other Staccato I have felt, slide fit on par with Kimber. Grip feels bigger than kimber but comfier. I tried to shoot this with dot off cowitnessing the irons in the test, but unlike the C, the irons seemed to shoot way low. So I quickly zeroed the dot and used it.



Staccato C: W: 1# 13.9 oz Trigger 4#


Trigger had the cleanest break and nicest feel. Flat trigger not my choice, but what was available, not as comfortable as curved to me and hits right in front of my finger joint. I was worried the grip might be too small since I sometimes have trouble getting my support hand on guns, but the grip was goldilocks and probably my favorite (though the shadow 2 compact is also nice in its own, racier way). Tiny bit of side to slide play in slide, but less than another C I have felt. Sights were surprisingly nice and worked well.


---------------


Here are the two guns I had pretty much settled on before realizing my ignorance about 1911/2011s might be worth addressing. I usually shoot on some farmland at 25 yards fairly slowly. My actual use case is shooting smallish pests or hogs on the farm, so I test guns more for that than for self defence. I was/am willing to get rid of either or both to of these to fund whatever shoots best.


Shadow 2 Compact W: 1# 15oz. Trigger 3#


Stock except for Lok palmswell grips and holosun 507c 2moa dot. This gun has pretty much destroyed any gun I have put it up against, including guns listed as below as Glock 19 challengers and a full size Shadow 2 with 507 comp. This gun feels like a BMW m3 to me. The recoil is quick but precise and the trigger is light in single action. The grip feels like I can get high up, lock in and just rip. The second handgun I ever bought was a CZ SP01 and I really liked it— incidentally the first gun I ever bought was a Kimber Gold Match II in 45. Recoil is a little more "direct" than the Staccato C--C is plusher feeling.



Glock 19 Gen 5 W: 1# 8.6 oz Trigger 5#


Stock except taran tactical sights and handleit stick on grip. I have compared several guns to this gun (CZ P07, CZ P10c, CZ P01, 2x Glock 45’s, Gen4 Glock 34, 17, 19, Tisas 4.25” 9mm 1911, usaSig P226) and usually walk away feeling like if I had to perform on demand I would take the Glock 19g5 for both speed and accuracy. That said I am maybe a little more accurate with German sigs and considerably more with the CZ s2c.

 

[Bearsniper]

I tried to do the FBI test as indicated by Form, (25yds 4min, 2x 15yds 15sec, 2x 15yds, 10 sec). I don’t have holsters for any of these except the Shadow 2 compact and Glock 19. Those holsters are for lights and I removed the lights for testing. I did the best I could to Mcgyver a way get the others on my hip. I shot the CZ with hammer cocked and on safe like the 1911/2011.

The only hiccup was the sprinfield failed to lock open on an empty mecgar 10rd mag on the final shot of the 25yd string. I acquired that mag used and the spring is pretty soft.

I did these tests back to back yesterday afternoon using the “Shootontime” app for time. Trying to count all the holes about drove me crazy. I tried to count and score as best I could but probably mathed wrong and made a mistake somewhere. I scored shots off the paper as 0. If you see numbers next to holes that was me trying different ways to keep the strings straight.

 

[Formidilosus]

I tried to do the FBI test as indicated by Form, (25yds 4min, 2x 15yds 15sec, 2x 15yds, 10 sec). I don’t have holsters for any of these except the Shadow 2 compact and Glock 19. Those holsters are for lights and I removed the lights for testing. I did the best I could to Mcgyver a way get the others on my hip. I shot the CZ with hammer cocked and on safe like the 1911/2011.

The only hiccup was the sprinfield failed to lock open on an empty mecgar 10rd mag on the final shot of the 25yd string. I acquired that mag used and the spring is pretty soft.

I did these tests back to back yesterday afternoon using the “Shootontime” app for time. Trying to count all the holes about drove me crazy. I tried to count and score as best I could but probably mathed wrong and made a mistake somewhere. I scored shots off the paper as 0. If you see numbers next to holes that was me trying different ways to keep the strings straight.

Good that you’re shooting each. But, it shows that perception isn’t reality. You also need to separate the ones that had dots from irons as well- that’s a massive difference. Also, if all of them haven’t had the sights adjusted to you- aka, zeroed: the results are not really useful. I mean you can say that the G19 ain’t great- which they are a more difficult pistol to learn to shoot well on demand. The Springfield definitely isn’t zeroed, and it doesn’t look like the Tisas is either.

CZ Shadows are very shootable pistols, but they are designed to be carried in DA/SA mode- not cocked and locked. Every string should be started in DA with it.


Again, overall good on you for trying them. However if you are trying to determine which ones to keep, and which ones to get rid of- you must control for different sights and whether they are zeroed or not.


Also- score each string and paste the targets after each string.

 

[JF_Idaho]

CZ Shadows are very shootable pistols, but they are designed to be carried in DA/SA mode- not cocked and locked. Every string should be started in DA with it.

Have to question you on this one, Form. Best practice....likely. Designed? Not likely.

 

[Bearsniper]

Thanks for the feedback Form. I didn't mean it to be an exhaustive test, more of round one / out of the box impressions. I went way overboard getting guns and thought the test might be a good starting point to see which guns might be worth spending time / money on. In deciding which to keep I did the scoring / timing more to add stress. I usually look at group size, dispersion, and how the gun felt.

That said, I think I could be pretty happy just not spending any more time on the others and practicing with the C. I'm just not as sure that I want to put a dot on it as I originally did.
The Tisas and the C were probably all around the two standouts for me; I would like to see how the Tisas does with a different trigger and sights.

 

[Formidilosus]

Have to question you on this one, Form. Best practice....likely. Designed? Not likely.

CZ themselves acknowledges that they are really meant as DA/SA guns- which is interesting as they have no decocker (where they came from didn’t carry chambered pistols way back when). The safety is too small to actuate as a thumb safety. Their SA guns have proper thumb safeties.
None of that is meant as you can’t carry one in condition 1- I have carried Shadow 2’s C&L a hunch, but the total system isn’t setup for it. From thumb safety size, to no grip safety.

Also, find out if CZ Shadows are actually drop safe….

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks for the feedback Form. I didn't mean it to be an exhaustive test, more of round one / out of the box impressions. I went way overboard getting guns and thought the test might be a good starting point to see which guns might be worth spending time / money on. In deciding which to keep I did the scoring / timing more to add stress. I usually look at group size, dispersion, and how the gun felt.

That said, I think I could be pretty happy just not spending any more time on the others and practicing with the C. I'm just not as sure that I want to put a dot on it as I originally did.
The Tisas and the C were probably all around the two standouts for me; I would like to see how the Tisas does with a different trigger and sights.

Understandable. And commendable that you actually used a “test” to see the differences.

For 1911’s- the KC Custom roll trigger kit is the one for performance carry/field guns. Drop in kit almost always, and is fantastic.

 

[JF_Idaho]

@Formidilosus

I agree with you.

And the shadow 2 was designed as a comp gun and likely left off the decocker for the slightly "improved" trigger specifically.

Was more basing off the 75 series which obviously the s2 is and offers models of both flavors..

And yes, the lever would not be a good choice for carry, speed or under stress for sure. I just do believe the actual design was optional.

I would guess the s2 "carry" has a decocker, but that's just speculation on my part.

 

[Bearsniper]

Understandable. And commendable that you actually used a “test” to see the differences.

For 1911’s- the KC Custom roll trigger kit is the one for performance carry/field guns. Drop in kit almost always, and is fantastic.

Thanks, my instinct is that Tisas trigger might just need to be lightened a little (might relax over time?) it is actually pretty crisp. The main issue is trigger reach. Shooting quicker definitely made understand that trigger reach is a thing.

The Springfield could use a trigger kit, it's creepy and inconsistent. I think the gun is kind of cool, but the safety is painful and it seems like it needs the most work. Frankly, I'm not really sure how to figure out if it's got potential or not.

 

[fwafwow]

Their books give a lot of drills you can train at home and then verify on the range. Latest one is here: https://www.amazon.com/Baseline-Dryfire-Guide-Red-Mastery/dp/B0G48V1JJ2/ref=sr_1_1

I have the book and am working through it. I plan to follow it, especially with building a routine.

I have also put my Mantis on my C, although the rail seems to be a tad wider (maybe 0.1") from the pic rail on my P320. I am looking at a magazine base plate option, but not sure if that location provides the same feedback as having it on the rail.

I am still too much of a novice to start timing myself, but Ben mentions early on the importance of using a timer. One more rabbit hole - but I'm trying to pull back on "must have gear" and focus on the fundamentals. Which is one reason I'm holding off on getting the red dot. (I do have a red dot on a different Sig, so I may do some drills with it as well.)

Realistically I’m more of a gun nerd and collector than a shooter, but I’m trying to move the balance more towards shooting and simplify things. At this point I pretty much use Form’s guidance as a starting point, but I like to test everything when possible. I am posting this in case my experience might help others starting to take pistol shooting more seriously like the OP.

I am in the same boat but trying to do the same. Thanks for the detailed posts.

So I went down the rabbit hole, trying to start out affordably to get my feet wet…you can guess about how that went.

The struggle is real

 

[Billogna]

Understandable. And commendable that you actually used a “test” to see the differences.

For 1911’s- the KC Custom roll trigger kit is the one for performance carry/field guns. Drop in kit almost always, and is fantastic.

I checked out KC's website and noticed that he sold kits as well as lone sears for the roll trigger. Any issues that you might see from someone just buying the sear and installing with their own hammer? Or do you just recommend getting the kit to avoid any technical/safetey issues?

 

[Formidilosus]

I checked out KC's website and noticed that he sold kits as well as lone sears for the roll trigger. Any issues that you might see from someone just buying the sear and installing with their own hammer? Or do you just recommend getting the kit to avoid any technical/safetey issues?

Get the kit. Don’t mess around with fitting and heat treat.

 

[streamerfish]

CZ themselves acknowledges that they are really meant as DA/SA guns- which is interesting as they have no decocker (where they came from didn’t carry chambered pistols way back when). The safety is too small to actuate as a thumb safety. Their SA guns have proper thumb safeties.
None of that is meant as you can’t carry one in condition 1- I have carried Shadow 2’s C&L a hunch, but the total system isn’t setup for it. From thumb safety size, to no grip safety.

Also, find out if CZ Shadows are actually drop safe….

Yeah, the shadow 2's specifically were designed as uspsa/ipsca competitive pistols to be run as da/sa. And they are dang good at it....

I don't have one, but I don't think they have a firing pin block?? I could be wrong.

 

[Billogna]

Get the kit. Don’t mess around with fitting and heat treat.

Figured as much! Thank you from a wannabe gunsmiff!!

 

[RockAndSage]

Which is one reason I'm holding off on getting the red dot. (I do have a red dot on a different Sig, so I may do some drills with it as well.)

I can't stress enough the value in using a red-dot in mastering your trigger press. Even if you decided to carry irons-only, the RDS will reveal stuff you just can't perceive or notice with irons during the press. They'd be worth a few hundred alone just as a training device.

 

[fwafwow]

I can't stress enough the value in using a red-dot in mastering your trigger press. Even if you decided to carry irons-only, the RDS will reveal stuff you just can't perceive or notice with irons during the press. They'd be worth a few hundred alone just as a training device.

OK - this foils my attempt to "master the basics" first. I was telling myself, "you can hold off on adding the RDS and just focus on the basics first. Then get the RDS." Yes, I bought more magazines. And a Speed Beez. But I was trying to show some restraint. For once.

I am getting some feedback on trigger press from the Mantis (although I realize it's not the same as live fire). I will continue to work on that as I retread the rabbit hole of RDS options. Or just go ahead and buy the Acro.

I haven't even shot the pistol yet! But I did lube it up with that sweet Cherry Balmz.

 

[RockAndSage]

I was telling myself, "you can hold off on adding the RDS and just focus on the basics first. Then get the RDS." Yes, I bought more magazines. And a Speed Beez. But I was trying to show some restraint. For once.

Lol, I hear ya. I usually end up spending more on accessories, mags, holsters, etc for a new handgun, than on the gun itself.