1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus,
Thanks much for this thread! I love learning this stuff, and maybe I’ll pick one of these up before long.

Sorta along this line, is there a good resource for learning how to tune a CRF action, like an M70? Something besides gunsmithing school I mean.

Buy an MRC? grin


Oof. I don’t.

 

[Schmo]

Buy an MRC? grin

Very likely that’s what will happen

 

[eamyrick]

I haven’t known a single 1911 that would reliably run Speer gold dot. 8-9 magazines fine and then a hang up etc. Probably 50 example guns. Springfield, Dan Wesson, Wilson Combat, etc. The Hornady flex tip ammo showed more promise as it was similar to ball in feeding but we run gold dot so I never explored much further.

 

[Formidilosus]

I haven’t known a single 1911 that would reliably run Speer gold dot. 8-9 magazines fine and then a hang up etc. Probably 50 example guns. Springfield, Dan Wesson, Wilson Combat, etc. The Hornady flex tip ammo showed more promise as it was similar to ball in feeding but we run gold dot so I never explored much further.

9mm or 45?

 

[eamyrick]

9mm or 45?

Should have clarified. All 45. The shift here for anything 9mm 1911/2011 is likely 99% Staccato which as you have mentioned are dead nuts reliable. I haven’t seen a 9mm 1911 pattern in years since maybe IDPA 2010 .

I’m stuck on Gen 5 19s with a dot.

 

[Formidilosus]

Should have clarified. All 45.

Hmmm. What magazines? Mags, extractor, and recoil springs on 1911’s is about 99% of the total.


It’s not that I doubt it, it’s that I and those I’m around for 20 years have heard “1911’s never run” and yet, all of ours do and have. And universally I would get told after a week of shooting that it was “the only 1911 I have seen work and not malfunction”. My response was always- “I don’t know what to say- all of mine and those I’m around work exactly the same”.
Gold Dot, Gold Dot G2, Golden Saber, and HST 230gr is almost I have shot and seen shot. I’ve seen a lot of those shot from several dozen 1911’s with no issues. And I mean no issues- I’ve had more malfunctions with Glocks than I have with 1911’s.


Springfield Professional, doesn’t get shot much. Just over 8,000 rounds with 230gr WCC, 185gr SWC, and 230gr HST/GD/G2 not a single stoppage. Getting wiped down when the recoil spring and mainspring were replaced last week.










Those chunks are off the extractor-


So much carbon that the extractor channel was blocked by it-



Then checking function and zero. 100 function rounds with each, and 10 rounds at 25y for zero/grouping-

BH 200gr SWC-



Remington Gokden Saber Bonded 230gr-



HST 230gr-


Speer Gold Dot G2 230gr



Hornady Critical Duty 220gr +P (recoils like a bish)-

The shift here for anything 9mm 1911/2011 is likely 99% Staccato which as you have mentioned are dead nuts reliable. I haven’t seen a 9mm 1911 pattern in years since maybe IDPA 2010 .

Isn’t that funny? 2011’s- the most finicky, unreliable platform 10 years ago, now legitimately one of the most reliable pistols I see (Staccato).

I’m stuck on Gen 5 19s with a dot.

Best Glock (and 17/19M’s) Glock has ever made.

 

[eamyrick]

@Formidilosus

I had 25 Springfield Operators in the closet. All had the 3 factory mags and 5 chip mags. I bought 6 Wilson ETMs for mine and it went back to Springfield 2x. The pistols loved ball whether it was Speer or WWB, it didn’t seem to matter. Gold dot through 8-9 mags always seemed to generate a malfunction. I have no doubt that one could be made right but was suprised to seem the same issue show its head with individual purchase Wilson’s and Wessons.

Either way it’s history now and I appreciate your analytical approach to every topic.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Where does slide to frame fit rank in importance? And bushing fit?

Is the short trigger preference or offer better mechanics?

 

[Formidilosus]

Where does slide to frame fit rank in importance?

It’s a feel thing only. No real effect on precision.

And bushing fit?

Important for precision. Barrel fit and bushing fit are probably the two greatest factors in precision of a 1911.

Is the short trigger preference or offer better mechanics?

Kind of better mechanics. When someone smashes, jerks, etc the trigger- a short trigger hides more of the error than a long one. If someone isn’t mid 6 foot tall, they probably would be better off with a short trigger.

 

[RockAndSage]

Everyone notice the sheen/wetness on the friction surfaces on Form's guns here?

Do that.

1911s have more friction surface than most other designs, and that means they have higher lubrication needs than something like a glock, with tiny little rail tabs, and a fraction of the friction-surface for locking lugs. John Browning ran his 1911 in the original Army trials over 6000 rounds without malfunction, but relubed it every 1000 rounds.

 

[Thegman]

Great info in this thread, and not to derail the subject, but I'll throw this out, because it bugs me...

I notice that I always end up comparing a pistol's "shootabilty" to a 1911 as standard because as stated, they pretty much are. Most striker fired guns don't quite get there, for me anyway. I think they could be a lot better by more closely copying a modern 1911/2011.

Copy a 1911 grip, add a modern 1911 thumb safety with a trigger that breaks more like a 1911's trigger, and a thinner 1911 slide, as opposed to the partially cocked Glock type "Safe-Action trigger", fat Glock-ish slides and unnecessarily large Glock type grips that so many striker fired pistols use.

I guess Glocks are kind of the legacy polymer/striker pistol design, and that's a design that sells well, but it sure seems striker fired pistols could be more "shootable" by copying as much as they can from a 1911 rather than a Glock.

 

[Reddish]

Important for precision. Barrel fit and bushing fit are probably the two greatest factors in precision of a 1911

Do you prefer bushings or bushingless bull barrels? I generally lean towards bushings, but more bc of tradition.

 

[Reddish]

Great info in this thread, and not to derail the subject, but I'll throw this out, because it bugs me...

I notice that I always end up comparing a pistol's "shootabilty" to a 1911 as standard because as stated, they pretty much are. Most striker fired guns don't quite get there, for me anyway. I think they could be a lot better by more closely copying a modern 1911/2011.

Copy a 1911 grip, add a modern 1911 thumb safety with a trigger that breaks more like a 1911's trigger, and a thinner 1911 slide, as opposed to the partially cocked Glock type "Safe-Action trigger", fat Glock-ish slides and unnecessarily large Glock type grips that so many striker fired pistols use.

I guess Glocks are kind of the legacy polymer/striker pistol design, and that's a design that sells well, but it sure seems striker fired pistols could be more "shootable" by copying as much as they can from a 1911 rather than a Glock.

The new CZ P-09 F Nocturne feels very similar to 1911 ergos. Be sweet if they had a better thumb safety and SAO for a better trigger.

 

[Formidilosus]

Great info in this thread, and not to derail the subject, but I'll throw this out, because it bugs me...

I notice that I always end up comparing a pistol's "shootabilty" to a 1911 as standard because as stated, they pretty much are. Most striker fired guns don't quite get there, for me anyway. I think they could be a lot better by more closely copying a modern 1911/2011.

Copy a 1911 grip, add a modern 1911 thumb safety with a trigger that breaks more like a 1911's trigger, and a thinner 1911 slide, as opposed to the partially cocked Glock type "Safe-Action trigger", fat Glock-ish slides and unnecessarily large Glock type grips that so many striker fired pistols use.

I guess Glocks are kind of the legacy polymer/striker pistol design, and that's a design that sells well, but it sure seems striker fired pistols could be more "shootable" by copying as much as they can from a 1911 rather than a Glock.

Sig P320 with thumb safety and a Brouwer M1811 grip module. The Brouwer grip module is a 1911 grip.

 

[HighUintas]

I'm thinking at some point when maybe I can choke down the idea of spending 300 to $400 on a grip, I'm going to get one of those mischief machine alpha gen 3 or Commander gen 2 for my p365.

@Formidilosus , how much does grip width matter for the 1911 and what is the width on an actual 1911? The alpha Gen 3 is 1.1 wide and the commander gem 2 is 1.2 wide. other than the replaceable grip panels on the commander and the width they are pretty much identical.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm thinking at some point when maybe I can choke down the idea of spending 300 to $400 on a grip, I'm going to get one of those mischief machine alpha gen 3 or Commander gen 2 for my p365.

@Formidilosus , how much does grip width matter for the 1911 and what is the width on an actual 1911? The alpha Gen 3 is 1.1 wide and the commander gem 2 is 1.2 wide. other than the replaceable grip panels on the commander and the width they are pretty much identical.

It’s more shape than pure width. For instance, it was understood that a rectangular shape grip- longer front to bag than wide was better, and that a relatively consistent shape/size from top to bottom was too. But during the Brouwer M1811 grip testing process, it became evident that the grip panels and rounded and reduced diameter front back straps played a pretty big part in comfort and control.

 

[Southernfried]

I'm thinking at some point when maybe I can choke down the idea of spending 300 to $400 on a grip, I'm going to get one of those mischief machine alpha gen 3 or Commander gen 2 for my p365.

@Formidilosus , how much does grip width matter for the 1911 and what is the width on an actual 1911? The alpha Gen 3 is 1.1 wide and the commander gem 2 is 1.2 wide. other than the replaceable grip panels on the commander and the width they are pretty much identical.

If it helps, my 2001 Kimber full size 45 with the factory grip panels is 1.28 in wide, the frame without any grip panels is .77 inches wide, on my cheap calipers. .....and I think Im going to go with finding a used m18/p320 and going with the Brouwer...least that is my notion right now lol

 

[LimeSpoon]

I believe all 1911s are not drop safe, correct? Only thing that’s made me shy away from picking up a Staccato. I know they just came out with the new pistol series to make them drop safe.

The "non-drop safeness" of the Series 70 1911 tends to be grossly overblown.

Normally the only way you can induce a fall-related discharge absent parts breakage is by dropping the pistol straight down on its muzzle on a hard surface. With a 9mm steel firing pin and an extra power firing pin spring (both features tend to be fairly common in today's 1911s), this requires a height of just under 6 ft - approximately eye level - to accomplish on a concrete floor.

At which point the bullet will promptly go into the ground and, in all likelihood, shatter and never hurt anyone. If you are unlucky maybe you will catch a bit of spatter on your shoe.

A muzzle up discharge, which is a far more dangerous event, is extremely unlikely. The grip safety (and manual safety, if active) will prevent the trigger from pulling itself under inertia, and the half cock notch will catch the hammer if it slips off its hooks during impact. If you want an extra layer of protection, Ned Christiansen's FallArrest hammer and safety set will provide one more mechanism to prevent the hammer from falling with the safety on.

Note that there are some pistols with firing pin blocks which don't boast the level of muzzle-up drop safety that the 1911 does. The early production P320s infamously had this problem, and I suspect a cocked P226, with its similar trigger shoe, may also fire if dropped this way from high enough. Ditto for a Condition 0 CZ75, many cocked revolvers, and potentially the Beretta 92 if the trigger shoe's inertia can overcome the transfer bar's (they move in opposite directions, which provides a degree of protection from inertial trigger pulls).

 

[Thegman]

The "non-drop safeness" of the Series 70 1911 tends to be grossly overblown.

Normally the only way you can induce a fall-related discharge absent parts breakage is by dropping the pistol straight down on its muzzle on a hard surface. With a 9mm steel firing pin and an extra power firing pin spring (both features tend to be fairly common in today's 1911s), this requires a height of just under 6 ft - approximately eye level - to accomplish on a concrete floor.

At which point the bullet will promptly go into the ground and, in all likelihood, shatter and never hurt anyone. If you are unlucky maybe you will catch a bit of spatter on your shoe.

A muzzle up discharge, which is a far more dangerous event, is extremely unlikely. The grip safety (and manual safety, if active) will prevent the trigger from pulling itself under inertia, and the half cock notch will catch the hammer if it slips off its hooks during impact. If you want an extra layer of protection, Ned Christiansen's FallArrest hammer and safety set will provide one more mechanism to prevent the hammer from falling with the safety on.

Note that there are some pistols with firing pin blocks which don't boast the level of muzzle-up drop safety that the 1911 does. The early production P320s infamously had this problem, and I suspect a cocked P226, with its similar trigger shoe, may also fire if dropped this way from high enough. Ditto for a Condition 0 CZ75, many cocked revolvers, and potentially the Beretta 92 if the trigger shoe's inertia can overcome the transfer bar's (they move in opposite directions, which provides a degree of protection from inertial trigger pulls).

Agreed, fwiw. The 1911 managed to get through a couple of world wars and 70 some years of service without this being an issue...suddenly they're going to kill you if you drop them...gmafb.

 

[Formidilosus]

Agreed, fwiw. The 1911 managed to get through a couple of world wars and 70 some years of service without this being an issue...suddenly they're going to kill you if you drop them...gmafb.

Correct. And the current “worry” in the tactical world was started by a Police Dept. that made a deal of it with Staccatos…. And for all the world it seems to have been about shenanigans.