Zeiss V6 or Nightforce NXS on Kimber Montana 270

[GLB]

Solid discussion there fellas!

Maybe I could get a little more detail out of you guys on your preferences for scopes.

First questions is what the actual benefit could be with using mils? I spoke recently with my brother in law who is an EOD tech in the Marine Corps. It seems as though they are taught in mils but they convert everything from inches/feet. I don't want to start a metric vs standard, fight. I'm
more interested in the ease of math in my head. For example, if I miss a target and see the splash a foot to the right, why convert that to mils? My mind already thinks in feet/inches.

Second question is FFP vs SFP. For hunting scenarios, and I plan on dialing, what benefit is FFP if I don't plan on using the reticle for hold over and I will always use my range finder for ranging?

Thanks again for all the solid info/opinions, differing as some of them may be. And I do appreciate that you're addressing my specific scenario because I will continue to carry rifles in the lighter end of the spectrum. I feel my shooting fundamentals are pretty solid, I've just never had the opportunity to practice beyond 500 yards.

Both MOA and Mil systems work just fine. Make sure that what ever you decide that the recticle and turrets are in the same unit of measure. I prefer Mils for my scope it easier for me to break it down in tenths. I would not want a FFP scope for hunting. The reticle becomes useless on the low power. FFP would be good for compition such as PRS when you are not on full power and shooting movers.

 

[Formidilosus]

Solid discussion there fellas!

Maybe I could get a little more detail out of you guys on your preferences for scopes.

First questions is what the actual benefit could be with using mils? I spoke recently with my brother in law who is an EOD tech in the Marine Corps. It seems as though they are taught in mils but they convert everything from inches/feet. I don't want to start a metric vs standard, fight. I'm more interested in the ease of math in my head. For example, if I miss a target and see the splash a foot to the right, why convert that to mils? My mind already thinks in feet/inches.

Second question is FFP vs SFP. For hunting scenarios, and I plan on dialing, what benefit is FFP if I don't plan on using the reticle for hold over and I will always use my range finder for ranging?

Thanks again for all the solid info/opinions, differing as some of them may be. And I do appreciate that you're addressing my specific scenario because I will continue to carry rifles in the lighter end of the spectrum. I feel my shooting fundamentals are pretty solid, I've just never had the opportunity to practice beyond 500 yards.

Follow the link that Jordan posted about how to use the reticle. I can say as a former HARD CORE (there isn't a person who has ever hated mils as much as I did) moa user, regardless of people's backgrounds they pick up and use mils way quicker. Regardless of what you're "comfortable" with, any thing with a base ten easier to remember and use.


And again ill go against the grain, with a well designed reticle FFP has no downsides. Now a lot of reticles aren't well designed however I and everyone I shoot with, use it all the time on less than max power and I want the reticle to be usable and have the same subtention regardless. The reticle isn't for ranging, and usually not for holding elevation. It's for holding wind. Lots of guys say that they never shoot in less than max magnification, but there are lots of times it makes sense.


Let's look at SFP vs FFP a bit different. When we adjust the power on a SFP scope the relationship between reticle and target change. With a FFP it remains the same. Following the logic that if your shooting long enough range to need to use the reticle, then you'll have it at the highest power- would anyone like it if their adjustment values on the turrets changed depending on maginification? I mean it wouldn't matter because if it's far enough away that you need to dial, then it's far enough away that you'll have it at the highest magnification..... a stretch, but not much.

 

[GLB]

I'll add to what I said above. scopes that are in 20x or more power range may benefit for hunting with FFP. There will be times and conditions that 20x is too much and that will require you to crank it down, so the value of your reticle will stay the same. I don't use a scope over 15x for hunting and never felt FFP was useful at that power range. If I am using a hold off for wind that is measured in Mils then I am at 15x as it is at a power level that I can shoot in most conditions.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Follow the link that Jordan posted about how to use the reticle. I can say as a former HARD CORE (there isn't a person who has ever hated mils as much as I did) moa user, regardless of people's backgrounds they pick up and use mils way quicker. Regardless of what you're "comfortable" with, any thing with a base ten easier to remember and use.


And again ill go against the grain, with a well designed reticle FFP has no downsides. Now a lot of reticles aren't well designed however I and everyone I shoot with, use it all the time on less than max power and I want the reticle to be usable and have the same subtention regardless. The reticle isn't for ranging, and usually not for holding elevation. It's for holding wind. Lots of guys say that they never shoot in less than max magnification, but there are lots of times it makes sense.


Let's look at SFP vs FFP a bit different. When we adjust the power on a SFP scope the relationship between reticle and target change. With a FFP it remains the same. Following the logic that if your shooting long enough range to need to use the reticle, then you'll have it at the highest power- would anyone like it if their adjustment values on the turrets changed depending on maginification? I mean it wouldn't matter because if it's far enough away that you need to dial, then it's far enough away that you'll have it at the highest magnification..... a stretch, but not much.

This x100000

In addition to holding wind, the reticle is also used as a ruler to call your own shots, spot shots for a buddy, make quick corrections after a miss is seen and a new call made, etc. Sometimes even holdover in hunting situations. I don't care what the mag range is, if I'm using a variable, I want it to be FFP. Seen more than one animal lost because the hunter used a holdover reticle and the mag was not on the max setting. In one instance it was a 3-9x scope. He had been carrying the rifle with the scope set on 4x in the trees, and when an opportunity arose in the open at 550 yards, he forgot to check the mag setting and shot right over the elk's back. I always want my reticle subtensions to be the same. A well-designed FFP reticle is usable at all mag settings, and light conditions.

 

[Beastmode]

Nightforce ATACR/ MOAR: FFP vs. SFP Reticle Comparison Demo - YouTube
Good demonstration on how reticles change in size at different power.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kotaman]

Nightforce ATACR/ MOAR: FFP vs. SFP Reticle Comparison Demo - YouTube
Good demonstration on how reticles change in size at different power.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s a great video explaining the difference.

 

[KurtR]

I agree after running ffp I don't think I could go back. The argument that all you get on low power is a cross hair does not make sense as if something is that close your not holding wind or anything it is point and shoot

 

[Journeyman]

Just a little comparison between the 270 and 6.5 Creedmore

These are Max Loads from Hornady's 10th Edition Reloading Book and Gundata.com's ballistic calculator for the chart

Also threw in a 5 mph cross wind to show the difference in wind drift

Blue is 270 Winchester with the 145 gr. ELD-X
Green is 6.5 Creedmore with the 143 gr. ELD-X

Pretty similar ballistically though the 270 requires between 56.1-59.9 grains to reach its velocity and the Creed is only using 44.7 grains.

How far would you feel comfortable with either of these on elk?

Also after some heavy reading the past couple days I'm leaning towards FFP and mils now...