Yet Another Magnum vs. Small Bore Cartridge Conundrum

[Q_Sertorius]

How much penetration are you looking for, and which bones are you referring to by "heavy bones"?

The ones in his own head.

PS - he isn’t the only one in this conversation who is hard-headed.

 

[Steve O]

I know that this topic has been beaten to death many times over, but there's one side of the "magnum vs. .223/6mm" conversation that I haven't seen discussed much.

To start, I'm a magnum cartridge shooter (primarily 300 win and 7 Rem mag with monolithics) that has fallen into the smaller is better rabbit hole on this forum. While I would consider myself very proficient with my current setups and probably shoot more magnum rounds every year than most, I absolutely see and agree with the appeal of making a substantial step down in cartridge size for hunting. I've all but committed to building a new Tikka in one of the smaller wonder cartridges, except for one thought that's stuck in my head.

I live in Alaska, and 99% of my hunting is for moose, black bear, and caribou. While I agree that a .243" bullet would be more than adequate for taking controlled shots on all of these, my hesitation lies in the fact that where we hunt, there is always a significant chance of running into a pissed off and/or wounded moose or brown bear. If such situation arises I would really appreciate the ability to break/punch through skeletal parts and find vitals, regardless of shot angle. I feel like the majority of those on the "smaller is better" side of these discussions are primarily hunting in the lower 48 or areas with low chance of such encounters.

My question is, if you were in my position and needed to account for the possibility of using your rifle to quickly stop an adrenaline filled moose or bear. would you still be confident in bringing a 6mm rifle along on all of your hunts? I don't ask this to be argumentative, I would really love to try out a rifle setup that is cheaper and inherently easier to shoot. I just can't wrap my head around being comfortable in the field without that extra "horsepower" in my back pocket for when things get western.

There is no shame in using a 300 Win in Alaska. All the debate and mud slinging is an exercise in futility. The odds of running into anything you need to be defensively protecting yourself from are infinitesimally small and the odds of either the little round or big round not working are the same. To say with authority either will work better than the other definitively is ignorant. Every single animal and situation is different.

I’d use my 300 because I have confidence in it in all situations. If I ever wanted to shoot another moose I’d probably have my .375 H&H because I don’t have many opportunities where it is fitting to use it. When I’m helping my buddy next year trying to get him a moose, I might have a .22 suppressed pistol to shoot a grouse or two and I will still be quite comfortable with my safety.

 

[One300wsm]

The ones in his own head.

PS - he isn’t the only one in this conversation who is hard-headed.

Why don’t you feel us in on your experiences with shooting big game. I’m interested to know what cartridge and bullets you have used and the results.

 

[Grizzle]

The bullet used and its placement has much more to do with the terminal affect than the cartridge pushing it. 300 rum down to 22 cm on moose has more than proven that for me. Lots of things work well, no matter how bad marketing wants to tell you otherwise.

 

[mwoolsey5]

I have both and when it’s big I always find myself grabbing the magnum. The 300 WM just hammers plan and simple. With that said I’ve carried smaller calibers in grizzly territory without hesitation sheep and goat hunting.

Can I ask what bullet and which smaller caliber/cartridge you tried in grizzly country that you were unsatisfied with?

Did animals die slower or what exactly was your experience that made you prefer the 300 WM?

 

[One300wsm]

The bullet used and its placement has much more to do with the terminal affect than the cartridge pushing it. 300 rum down to 22 cm on moose has more than proven that for me. Lots of things work well, no matter how bad marketing wants to tell you otherwise.

No argument here. But I was asking Q_Sertorius. I have no doubt you being from BC, have more than likely had more encounters with Moose and Grizzlies than I have I’m “NOT” ignorant to that fact. I’m also “NOT” ignorant to the fact that the smallest of cartridges can kill anything with a well placed shot even if it takes it hours to do so. Example Moose shot with 22 mag rib cage partially punctured one lung it will die just a matter of how long and how many shots, if he stands there.
Quote my original post:
I have both and when it’s big I always find myself grabbing the magnum. The 300 WM just hammers plan and simple. With that said I’ve carried smaller calibers in grizzly territory without hesitation sheep and goat.
The thread goes south soon after.

 

[One300wsm]

Can I ask what bullet and which smaller caliber/cartridge you tried in grizzly country that you were unsatisfied with?

Did animals die slower or what exactly was your experience that made you prefer the 300 WM?

I’m with Steve O and his comment, I have “confidence” with the 300WM. I have not and would not attempt to take a small cartridge on a brown bear or grizzly hunt, but I have carried one often in grizzly territory without being worried I was going to get ate by a bear. Which may I add is what the thread is about. I use an assortment of bullets in all different kinds of cartridges mostly depends on which shoots the best. I’ve killed big game with Barnes, Nosler, Hornady, Sierra, Maker and Bergers also just purchased some Apex .257 116’s for 25 CM haven’t had the chance to shot anything yet and it won’t be a grizzly bear unless I’m sheep or goat hunting and get attacked.

 

[RockAndSage]

“displacement" translates to heavier bullet weights and larger calibers. The concept means that a bigger, heavier projectile simply pushes more tissue and bone out of the way, creating a wider permanent wound channel.

Tissue Displacement: A wider bullet crushes a larger permanent wound cavity immediately upon impact, requiring less ideal shot placement to stop a target.

The 30-06 I carry might be too much for the black bear but the caribou and moose at 300+ yards seem to appreciate a bigger punch then a 6mm can offer.

There are two things that are being missed here: 1) bullet design matters, and 2) multiple advantages with smaller cartridges enhance shot placement.

Nobody advocating small caliber is saying that just any bullet will do - the excellent real-world performance on living animals of all sizes is coming from tipped match bullets that are heavy for caliber.

Yes, a big 200+ gr tipped match .30cal bullet does do a lot more damage than a 77gr TMK out of any .223 cartridge - excessive amounts in game animals, IMO. They're devastating.

The point here that's being missed though, is the far larger recoil with that .30cal magnum results in more rodeos with more shooters simply from bad shot placement. People are nowhere as good as they think they are in field realities with rifles, or even at a range. Especially when they aren't getting large volumes of practice in with low-recoil rounds.

 

[surfr716]

Ive shot the Yukon, Canadian and Shiras and don’t care to shoot another, not much of a hunt moose are dumb. You sound like a leftist liberal slinging offense words just because I don’t agree with you. I know what I’ve experienced and your facts are based off of what ? Your experiences ? I will reframe from the name calling I don’t think anyone on this thread or platform is ignorant. A 300 WM slinging a 208 ELD-M 3000 fps vs a 22 CM doing 3200 fps which will do more internal damage. Pick a place and Time we can video the hunt and compare the internal damage of the two cartridges and once and for all settle this nonsense. Me personally I couldn’t care less what you use. I don’t think I said anything other than what I’ve seen and my experience to be called ignorant. I’ll keep slinging the heavy stuff. Have a nice day

I shot my Montana buck with a 16 in 22 arc this last year loaded with 77 tmk, my hunting partner shot his the following morning with a 338 Lapua with a 300 gr berger. Mine tipped on his nose, my buddies took a couple steps and tipped over; both high shoulder impacts, mine around 200 yards his was at about 165. Apart from the entry wound the results were really similar, similar exit wound size, similar damage to the heart and lungs and hung up youd have been hard pressed to tell which rifle killed which.

Ive killed game with everything from the 22 arc to my own 338 Lapua and honestly a well constructed bullet in the vitals is deadly regardless of the round that gets it there

 

[One300wsm]

I shot my Montana buck with a 16 in 22 arc this last year loaded with 77 tmk, my hunting partner shot his the following morning with a 338 Lapua with a 300 gr berger. Mine tipped on his nose, my buddies took a couple steps and tipped over; both high shoulder impacts, mine around 200 yards his was at about 165. Apart from the entry wound the results were really similar, similar exit wound size, similar damage to the heart and lungs and hung up youd have been hard pressed to tell which rifle killed which.

Ive killed game with everything from the 22 arc to my own 338 Lapua and honestly a well constructed bullet in the vitals is deadly regardless of the round that gets it there

I don’t know why anyone would shoot deer sized game with a 338 Lapua unless it was over 1000 yards.

 

[HilltopHitman]

If you’re comfortable with your 300 then shoot your 300. I have gone rounds and rounds with others/friends on this. It varies from person to person. I’m a big bore shooter.

 

[Axlrod]

I don’t know why anyone would shoot deer sized game with a 338 Lapua unless it was over 1000 yards.

Because you don't know what you don't know. I have killed elk when I was antelope hunting, and deer/antelope/wolf when I was elk/moose hunting. Seasons overlap, so you use what ya brought.

 

[One300wsm]

Because you don't know what you don't know. I have killed elk when I was antelope hunting, and deer/antelope/wolf when I was elk/moose hunting. Seasons overlap, so you use what ya brought.

I was speaking of purposely, the Op stated him and his hunting partner killed deer together. Maybe they were maybe they weren’t hunting Elk. With that said I don’t know why anyone would purposely take a 22 arc Elk hunting. Just my opinion, there’s better suited cartridges.
Just because you’re hunting deer in Montana doesn’t mean you have a combo tag. I’ve hunted Deer only and Elk only. This year I will be hunting Antelope solo carrying a 25CM.

 

[HandgunHTR]

With that said I don’t know why anyone would purposely take a 22 arc Elk hunting. Just my opinion, there’s better suited cartridges.

Better suited to what, exactly?

 

[One300wsm]

Better suited to what, exactly?

For hunting Elk. It has a whopping 1000 lb of energy at 200 yards.

 

[HandgunHTR]

For hunting Elk. It has a whopping 1000 lb of energy at 200 yards.

KE of a bullet is a nonsensical measure of its ability to effectively kill game.

 

[eric1115]

For hunting Elk. It has a whopping 1000 lb of energy at 200 yards.

And yet, that whopping amount of energy didn't prevent it from creating a wound that was functionally the same (and had the same effect on the animal) as a .338 LM. Because it is the bullet that matters, not the cartridge or the energy.

 

[nm.otter]

Worth a listen/watch.

Listen, really.

 

[eric1115]

I don’t know why anyone would shoot deer sized game with a 338 Lapua unless it was over 1000 yards.

I agree. Need a .375 cheytac at least, if the .338LM only matched a .22 ARC in terms of tissue damage.

 

[KHntr]

I was speaking of purposely, the Op stated him and his hunting partner killed deer together. Maybe they were maybe they weren’t hunting Elk. With that said I don’t know why anyone would purposely take a 22 arc Elk hunting. Just my opinion, there’s better suited cartridges.
Just because you’re hunting deer in Montana doesn’t mean you have a combo tag. I’ve hunted Deer only and Elk only. This year I will be hunting Antelope solo carrying a 25CM.

This is where your opinion takes a left turn from the small cartridge/optimized bullet crowd.

Some of us have looked at the damage done by the optimized bullet choice and went “huh. That kills stuff pretty fast. And it penetrated deep enough. And it broke enough bones. And it was more enjoyable to shoot. Why am I using that instead of this? This did as much damage as that, so why would I use that?”

I think that a lot of guys, such as yourself possibly, have a deep rooted belief that a small cartridge with a big bullet, can’t possibly work as well as a bigger cartridge. (And the long history of needing tough bullets for tough game that was espoused by outdoor writers for years, and some of those guys may have written things based on who was funding their trip……just sayin’.)

When it comes right down to it, sometimes enough actually IS enough to deal with anything you need dealt with. Even if a lot of people tell you it isn’t just because their daddy said so.

Incidentally, 3 out of the last 4 seasons I have carried a 223AI while hunting moose, on purpose. In that same three year span I carried a 300wm (inherited from my dad, every handful of years I take it elk hunting and kill a bull with it, as I promised him), a 280AI, and a 223AI.
Those 3 seasons accounted for three bull moose with the 223AI, and 3 bull elk -280AI, 300wm, 223AI.
Last fall I carried a 22 Creed, on purpose, for moose, elk, deer, bears, etc. Oddly enough, it worked just fine on moose, elk, deer, bears, and etc’s just fine from 7 yards through 300+. Wouldn’t have been any difference in results had I been using the 223AI/88 ELD m or carrying a 243AI/280AI/3006/300RUM etc etc etc…

Bullets matter. Headstamps don’t.