Wyoming Mule Deer, what the answer?

[robby denning]

All the data I have observed from multiple studies show antler restrictions do not increase mature buck numbers. In fact it does the opposite long term, it focuses all the hunting pressure on the very type of deer people want more of.

It's an incredibly backward way of thinking and management.

I'd suggest listening to the rokcast podcast episode "Big picture research for mule deer" from August of this year. It covers antler restrictions.

Thanks for the mention, and while i might've mentioned antler restrictions on that episode, I believe you want to listen to the 7/31/23 episode: Antler Point Restrictions with Wyo Bio Jeff Short

 

[Wyo_hntr]

Thanks for the mention, and while i might've mentioned antler restrictions on that episode, I believe you want to listen to the 7/31/23 episode: Antler Point Restrictions with Wyo Bio Jeff Short

Oh yep, I got it wrong! But the correct episode you cited is a great one. Sorry about the incorrect info.

 

[zrodwyo]

I saw a poster in the game and fish office that said 15% of all car accidents in Wyo are wildlife related and nearly as many mule deer are killed by cars as hunters - 5 % annually. Wildlife crossings seem like a good place to start.

 

[Touchdown88]

For anybody who thinks that a point restriction is a good idea, take a long hard look at the Bookcliffs deer herd. I've been fortunate enough to have hunted there over the past several years with family and we see about 30% of the herd with less than four points on one side. There is also a larger than normal population of huge 2x2. I've seen one on the hoof and saw pictures of another one from last year. Don't believe me? Check out my avatar.

Bottom line, increase the habitat and the deer herd will follow.

 

[cqh1111]

For anybody who thinks that a point restriction is a good idea, take a long hard look at the Bookcliffs deer herd. I've been fortunate enough to have hunted there over the past several years with family and we see about 30% of the herd with less than four points on one side. There is also a larger than normal population of huge 2x2. I've seen one on the hoof and saw pictures of another one from last year. Don't believe me? Check out my avatar.

Bottom line, increase the habitat and the deer herd will follow.

I agree. I’ve seen plenty of 4+ year old forkhorns that were doing most of the breeding.

 

[go_deep]

Female primarily carries the genes of the male, male carries the genes of the female.
Big 2 point mates with doe, and they have a buck fawn, buck fawn will have a better chance of carrying the head gear of the dad of the doe, not the 2 point.
That's why antler culling doesn't work, the doe carries the genes of the big 2 point and passes them on to future bucks.

 

[bdan68]

But do the deer really care how many points they have? Probably not, they can't count. It only matters to hunters.

 

[S.Clancy]

Female primarily carries the genes of the male, male carries the genes of the female.
Big 2 point mates with doe, and they have a buck fawn, buck fawn will have a better chance of carrying the head gear of the dad of the doe, not the 2 point.
That's why antler culling doesn't work, the doe carries the genes of the big 2 point and passes them on to future bucks.

I'd like to see the genetics study showing that. Even if it were true, it doesn't take many generations to turn a lot of bucks into 2 pt genetics if big ass 2x2's are breeding all the does.

 

[S.Clancy]

But do the deer really care how many points they have? Probably not, they can't count. It only matters to hunters.

I would say yes, the deer care.

The most healthy populations are genetically diverse. Anything that takes away from high genetic diversity (say, a regulation that focuses predation, hunting, on a specific subset of male individuals instead of the male population as a whole) decreases the health of that deer population. We want a maximum of genetic diversity to deal with environmental bottlenecks; aka drought, winter, changes in habitat, etc. As you cleave away at the genetic diversity, which antler pt restriction absolutely does, you would remove the ability of the population to adapt long term. It's not a good idea from herd health perspective or hunting "big" (score) bucks perspective.

 

[Baddog]

I saw over 200 whitetail bucks and over 100 mule deer bucks in just 3 mornings/evenings of watching deer in Wyoming this September. In a year where they said that it was a “down year” for the deer populations in that area.

I’m going to need some gps coordinates to vet this comment.

 

[KHNC]

No

Right, always someone trying to pretend the MD population isnt declining everywhere in the US.

 

[KHNC]

I’m going to need some gps coordinates to vet this comment.

This used to be the case in Sheridan Wyoming at www.nelsonoutfitters.com I have video of 100's of deer in alfalfa fields day or night. Not the case now. EHD has hammered the WT population. Not sure what has wiped out the MD. Not for buck count tho. Those numbers on buck count are BS.

 

[KHNC]

I saw over 200 whitetail bucks and over 100 mule deer bucks in just 3 mornings/evenings of watching deer in Wyoming this September. In a year where they said that it was a “down year” for the deer populations in that area.

You may possibly have seen 200 Whitetail deer , but not 200 WT bucks. Im calling BS on that without a doubt. My outfitter buddy in Sheridan canceled their 2023 Whitetail hunts this year due to EHD wiping out the population yet again. I used to see 200-300 WT in a full day and over 100 MD in the early to mid 2000's . Not the case there now.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

You may possibly have seen 200 Whitetail deer , but not 200 WT bucks. Im calling BS on that without a doubt. My outfitter buddy in Sheridan canceled their 2023 Whitetail hunts this year due to EHD wiping out the population yet again. I used to see 200-300 WT in a full day and over 100 MD in the early to mid 2000's . Not the case there now.

Really? Haha. You can call a stranger a lair all you want but it doesn’t change what is true.

It was staggering the amount of bucks both whitetail and mule deer. You can call BS all you want but…

Let me give you an idea of your lack of knowledge of the area I’m talking about… Its almost 3 hours east of Sheridan, mixed public land but mostly tons and tons of private farm fields that my father in law and his neighbors farm. One evening alone in one particular field I saw over 40 whitetail bucks scattered in groups throughout the field.

Get out and see things for yourself and stop listening to “buddies” is some sounds advice I’d give you.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I’m going to need some gps coordinates to vet this comment.

Sure. You won’t be able to hunt the majority of it but I’ll let you know the general area send me a PM.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

This used to be the case in Sheridan Wyoming at www.nelsonoutfitters.com I have video of 100's of deer in alfalfa fields day or night. Not the case now. EHD has hammered the WT population. Not sure what has wiped out the MD. Not for buck count tho. Those numbers on buck count are BS.

You don’t know what you don’t know. Get outside and learn new areas.

 

[KHNC]

Really? Haha. You can call a stranger a lair all you want but it doesn’t change what is true.

It was staggering the amount of bucks both whitetail and mule deer. You can call BS all you want but…

Let me give you an idea of your lack of knowledge of the area I’m talking about… Its almost 3 hours east of Sheridan, mixed public land but mostly tons and tons of private farm fields that my father in law and his neighbors farm. One evening alone in one particular field I saw over 40 whitetail bucks scattered in groups throughout the field.

Get out and see things for yourself and stop listening to “buddies” is some sounds advice I’d give you.

You CLEARLY STATED 200 bucks. Now you say 40 bucks. The BS was on you seeing that many bucks in one sit. I’ve been out there many times during the best of the best years. Saw 40-60 bucks in a day and over 200 deer , but never 200 bucks in a day. Not a chance.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

You CLEARLY STATED 200 bucks. Now you say 40 bucks. The BS was on you seeing that many bucks in one sit. I’ve been out there many times during the best of the best years. Saw 40-60 bucks in a day and over 200 deer , but never 200 bucks in a day. Not a chance.

I never said 200 in one day. Read closer please.

 

[treydfoster]

Bucks don't have fawns, you stop shooting Does to increase herd size. On the flip side, game managers like to shoot the crap out of the doe population to show their customers a more favorable buck/doe ratio.

They shoot does for ranchers and farmers.

 

[treydfoster]

Female primarily carries the genes of the male, male carries the genes of the female.
Big 2 point mates with doe, and they have a buck fawn, buck fawn will have a better chance of carrying the head gear of the dad of the doe, not the 2 point.
That's why antler culling doesn't work, the doe carries the genes of the big 2 point and passes them on to future bucks.

Where you getting this idea?