Worried about Montana’s future

[wind gypsy]

It's happening everywhere sadly.

The urban populations continue to grow, then a few people get the romantic 'back to the land' ideas and move to the country for a few years, bring along their ideals and then push it upon those who live and breathe what the west is about.

The only way I can see positive change is to continue to promote the outdoors lifestyle and try to involve those who have no idea what it's about, have to evangelize!

You're probably never going to change an anti-hunter's mind, but you can ask questions to understand their points (right or wrong) and respectfully inform them of your point of view. Mutual respect is what's require. Unfortunately there is an increasing sentiment sweeping the world that if someone doesn't fall in line with your ideas they are an enemy.... sounds like communism to me!

Great post. Many might not give an effort to understand our values and why we live the way we do. But if we conduct ourselves in the manner you suggest we have a much better chance of changing hearts and minds rather than reinforcing common urbanite misconceptions of hunters.

 

[ramont]

OK, you guys have opened the door so here goes.

Fist of all of these "changes" that you guys are talking about are the result of PROGRESSIVE thought. The Progressive movement has always taught that the rich industrialists are the evil that destroys the innocent human being and that without capitalistic conservatism the world would be a perfect nirvana of equality and peace. Progressivism was created and taught by the likes of Marx and Engals, some call if Communism but the reality is that it's just a world view created by the rich narcissists that believe that they are the brilliant few that have an obligation to force us all in to a better societal norm, even if they have to kill a few thousand or million people in the process. They believe that the ends justify the means, that when the dust settles we will all bow to their brilliance and thank them for saving us from ourselves.

These Progressives belong to all political parties but the one common thread is that they became progressives through the teachings of our schools, colleges, and universities. The Progressive movement in the early 1900's was smart enough to realize that we needed to start the social change by indoctrinating our children, once the child's perception of right and wrong/ good and bad was adjusted to match up with the proper way to think then it would be easier to make the social changes that they wanted. This is easy to do. All they did was use the propaganda of pity for the children. The progressives sold us a bill of goods about allowing children to express themselves without influence from the preconceived notions of adults. The told us that it was healthier to allow a child to find out what they liked in the world rather than have an experienced adult tell them what works and what doesn't. In short, they cut the ties to parents and family and replaced them with a tie to the big brother government.

The government becomes the parent, it becomes the benevolent, kind hearted authority that wants to protect us. Progressivism manipulates the basic weakness of all mankind, they appeal to our desire for protection from hardship and danger and progressivism tries to substitute family and local community with national or global government as our protector. The goal being a global community that thinks and acts the same; kind, loving, peaceful, productive, happy robots that do what they are told because they don't question authority since all authority is benevolent and caring. This is why I reject the dogma that any President of this country is a father figure, a kind daddy that will take care of us, like people seem to think Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Clinton, Obama, etc. all were. They were all progressives that wanted to force the country to change to their view of the world. Modern big city people have all been indoctrinated in to thinking this way to their very marrow, that's why you hear people from Colorado, Utah, Montana all claim that they are conservative while they still support progressive ideals. Progressivism is a disease of the human animal, it appeals to the worst of our character, greed, selfishness, narcissism, while claiming just the opposite. Progressives will claim that they are doing something for the children, or women, or minorities when in truth it's a manipulation of the society to the advantage of the Progressive movement.

The fix is to grow a pair and learn to tell your family and friends that they are full of crap when they start telling you that The Great Oz in the Whitehouse will fix your world - we fix our world. We make the world reflect what we believe, but only if we get off our butts and vote and take affirmative action against those that we don't agree with. Hillary Clinton recently said that you aren't obligated to be civil to people that stand against what you believe in, that works both ways. We need to be verbal and loud when we get in to conversations with those that spout off that the Federal Government is our daddy, when they say that we shouldn't do something because it hurts the feelings of some minor group within the population, when they attack something that we believe in. One of the Progressive movements psychological tools is to teach our kids that it's important to be liked, bull crap, being liked is nice but isn't an imperative. If you are liked by everybody you know then you've never defined any standard that you live by and while your "friends" might like you at your parties, they sure as hell wont give a crap about you when you need their help. Freedom is all about the ability to do things that people wont like or saying things that some people wont agree with.

Freedom is the ability to be yourself without fear of retribution or harassment as long as you don't damage other people's property or person. That doesn't mean that you are free of the consequences of your words or acts but as long as you are prepared to deal with those consequences then you should have the freedom to express yourself. That's the problem with the people form these bastions of progressive thought, they think that they should be able to voice their opinions and take action without anybody opposing them. They think that they should be able to run the world without anybody standing in their way. When somebody does stand up to them they use every dirty trick to win including manipulating the press and the law - we need to use the same tactics if we expect to keep our freedom.

 

[vanish]

More specifically it is all of the major metro areas and the results of generations of people living thier entire life with no interaction with the natural world. It is ignorance of the life cycle and order of nature. It is the resulting air of entitlement that if one complains loud enough and long enough they can create a special interest group and get their way.

I can flip this on you.

More specifically, it is all the major rural areas and the results of generations of people living their entire life with no interaction with other cultures. It is ignorance of the lives and plights of others. It is the resulting air of entitlement that if one complains loud enough and long enough they can create a special interest group and prevent change.

 

[rileybassman]

Montana needs to adopt a new official State slogan like Nebraska did this week... "Nebraska, honestly its not for everyone". That should help keep most people away.

We do... I always chuckle when I see the "Get Lost" shirts and hats... definitely a dual meaning I think

I think having the big parks doesn't help... you get millions coming through them, falling in love, and moving up here.

 

[Backyard]

I can flip this on you.

More specifically, it is all the major rural areas and the results of generations of people living their entire life with no interaction with other cultures. It is ignorance of the lives and plights of others. It is the resulting air of entitlement that if one complains loud enough and long enough they can create a special interest group and prevent change.

Yep!
I live in a rural area where the locals piss and moan all the way to the bank about all the city folk moving out to the country, right after they sell them the land to move on to.

 

[nexus]

Fear and greed drive the majority of a persons emotional responses to change or perceived threats. The only effective means of combating emotional reactions stemming from these ingrained protective mechanisms is persistent and moderated attempts at education and communication. However, over time the extremes have sowed more and more fear into the populous giving rise to an all too common win at all costs attitude for even the smallest of issues - as long as it is against "THEM". This tribal think and lack of true productive discourse (think back to Regan and O'Neal) has done nothing to resolve issues and continues to further divide people.

You want to protect your way of life? Get out and introduce yourself to people that don't look like you, act like you, worship like you, etc. Show people who you are, the value of your lifestyle, and the majesty of the outdoors surrounding "THEM". Of course you are not going to crack all the nuts, but preaching to the choir on sites like this is not going to accomplish a thing with "THEM". Don't be afraid of "THEM"....

Hell, what am I saying, I'll probably get hit by a car in the big city tomorrow anyways....

 

[archp625]

California ruins everything. I read several post about this happening everywhere. I agree. Unfortunately my crazy family from California has moved to MO and want to change the ways its been forever. Change isn't always bad, but you get my gist.

 

[Btaylor]

I can flip this on you.

More specifically, it is all the major rural areas and the results of generations of people living their entire life with no interaction with other cultures. It is ignorance of the lives and plights of others. It is the resulting air of entitlement that if one complains loud enough and long enough they can create a special interest group and prevent change.

You certainly can say that but you would be wrong, at least to my knowledge. I have never seen or heard of a rural group going into a major city and protesting. I have never seen a large group of rural americans organize and lobby to take rights away from city people. Conservation, stewardship, respect for for the land and ones fellow man are monumentally more predominant in rural america than they ever will be in major metro areas, specifically along both coast. Watch a natural disaster hit a rural community, every one bans together and helps everyone. Watch what happens when a pro team in a major city wins a title, more times than not there are riots, car getting burned and looting. The rural segment of this country has never lost sight of its roots rather than wholesale dismissing them in favor of the wants of all the immigrants and the somehow offended that have flooded into the cities.

 

[FLAK]

We took a vacation up there back in August. I was amazed (not in a good way) at how
Liberal Helena, Bozeman and Missoula were leaning. Very disappointed.
Went in a Fly shop in Wallace, Id. guess who owned it? yep a guy from Cali.
Stopped for lunch at a downtown place in Helena and there was a Homo in a Kilt with B.O. in there
along with several other questionables.
The employees at "Mod Pizza" were at least entertaining.
Where are all the country folk, Cowboys, Rednecks? We sure didn't see any.

 

[vanish]

Conservation, stewardship, respect for for the land and ones fellow man are monumentally more predominant in rural america than they ever will be in major metro areas, specifically along both coast.

This is wishful thinking

People like to think they are "better" than "others" but there are conservationists and slobs whether you live in the city or rural areas. The worst areas for trash in Colorado are where the locals go and dump their old refrigerators, televisions and couches and shoot them up, leaving it for the rest of us to clean up. These aren't the "city folk" doing that - they're willing to pay taxes to have their trash collected and large item pickup days.

Rural folk may have respect for their local friends, but respect for "outsiders", whether its outside their "town", their religion or their political views is generally slim. Its probably the same proportion of people in the cities that respect others, its just easier to see the bad when people are tightly grouped together rather than spread out over vast areas.

The rural segment of this country has never lost sight of its roots rather than wholesale dismissing them in favor of the wants of all the immigrants and the somehow offended that have flooded into the cities.

I guarantee you come from an immigrant family. This country was built on immigrants. Most just want a decent life and are willing to work for it. So who has lost site of their roots?

 

[Btaylor]

My ancestry is part immigrant and part native american. My earlier comments were "in general" terms, you can single out in any populace. You illustrated a an important point that gets missed, you seem to indicate that I think I am "better" and that could not be further from the truth. I just dont want someone who has no concept of my world telling my how wrong I am for living the way I do. I certainly am not trying to change the way others live or take away any right they have and expect the same in return. I am a pretty simple country minded fella but I have strong beliefs in what is right and wrong when it comes to my freedoms.

 

[ramont]

I can flip this on you.

More specifically, it is all the major rural areas and the results of generations of people living their entire life with no interaction with other cultures. It is ignorance of the lives and plights of others. It is the resulting air of entitlement that if one complains loud enough and long enough they can create a special interest group and prevent change.

Seriously? You don't need to be familiar with how the rest of the world works in order to manage where you live. The average Afghan hasn't got any idea how the rest of the world works and they live in their world pretty comfortably. Do we think it's barbaric and misguided? Most people do, but it's their way of life and nobody has a right to tell them to change it unless they choose to do so. Do you think we should change how we conduct ourselves so that an Afghan immigrant feels better? I don't, it's up to the immigrant to adapt to our traditions and life style.
It's obvious that you are a progressive who thinks that everybody needs to be the same (while still keeping everything that you think you are entitled to), that it's bad to be disliked by somebody (but it's OK for you to dislike somebody that disagrees with you) and that means that we need to apologize for how we act and think and change.

So tell us when you've seen some special interest group from a rural area protesting and complaining loud enough to prevent change? The only small groups I see protesting and complaining are Antifa and the progressive left. They don't want to change what isn't working within the government. Air of entitlement? You mean like the Obamas, Pelosi, and the Clintons? Hillary who thinks that she's entitled to multiple, multi-million dollar homes and allowed to incite violence because people don't agree with her?

I wont disagree that a lot of the old familys that have never left Montana seem to walk in lockstep but honestly they usually march to the tune of the Democrat Party, a party that they think is still the old party of the early 1900's, something they no longer are, well actually they are the same party but they've always lied about what they want.

I'm from out of state and I've traveled a lot over the last 40 plus years of my life (8 countries and almost every state in the Union) and I can honestly say that I support most of everything that is considered typical Montana life. I don't want to change anything and while I disagree with a lot of farmers and ranchers about land management I don't think we disagree on much else and since they live and work on the land that they are trying to protect I think that they have more right to decide how it's managed than I do. I moved here because I've found that most Montanans just want to be left alone and live their lives in peace and they try to treat most others the same way. I don't see where that's a bad thing. I couldn't care less how other cultures live, how they live doesn't have anything to do with Montana. Besides, most of the world, especially the third world countries, are crap holes and I don't feel any obligation to make concessions to immigrants from those places. Just what does the life style of a foreigner have to do with managing our lives? Are you implying that we should change our lives to make a Muslim feel comfortable? Or a Hindu? Not unless they are a majority and that majority votes to make changes that they want.

 

[Billinsd]

My relatives have been in America, since at least the late 1600s. The last relatives came in after the civil war. I'm about as Native Ameican as a guy can get, considering my English Ancestors were Colonialists. However, that doesn't make me better or worse than later immigrants. I cringe when I hear Native this, and native that. I'm saying I'm a Native American to kinda poke fun at the term. We all came from somewhere, including the Indians. My relatives have passed down their culture of freedom and liberty. A lot of my ancestors where named George after Washington. I believe so, because my great, great, great uncle's first name was George and his middle Washington. What's been said about rural people is partly true. Back a generation or two both sides of my family were rural people. They made fun of themselves and other people, however, they were and are GOOD people!! They do tend to be narrow minded, not well educated, etc. on the downside. However, they are better people in my eyes in general than urban and suburbanites. They do change too, but slowly. I would not be real happy living 12 months a year in a rural town. I don't think I'd like to live 12 months a year anywhere. I know I don't want to live nor care to visit urban areas and big suburban areas in general.

 

[Billinsd]

This is wishful thinking

People like to think they are "better" than "others" but there are conservationists and slobs whether you live in the city or rural areas. The worst areas for trash in Colorado are where the locals go and dump their old refrigerators, televisions and couches and shoot them up, leaving it for the rest of us to clean up. These aren't the "city folk" doing that - they're willing to pay taxes to have their trash collected and large item pickup days.

That's human nature. I believe we are all hard wired to believe we are better than others and to distrust others. It's part of our survival instincts that are not necessary anymore and can cause us problems. Both rural and urban/suburban people think this way. This whole paragraph does't really prove anything.

Rural folk may have respect for their local friends, but respect for "outsiders", whether its outside their "town", their religion or their political views is generally slim. Its probably the same proportion of people in the cities that respect others, its just easier to see the bad when people are tightly grouped together rather than spread out over vast areas.

I don't really follow your reasoning that well. I agree with your generalizations about rural people, but not about your comparisons between Urban/Suburban people. There are good and bad people in both groups. I believe most people are evil or can be evil and as a society we are civilized and have religion to reduce evil. Rural people are tighter and as the town grows that tightness diminishes.

I guarantee you come from an immigrant family. This country was built on immigrants. Most just want a decent life and are willing to work for it. So who has lost site of their roots?

There is no guaranteeing. We are all immigrants, even the Indians. Not all immigrants are the same and immigrant expectations have changed in the last 10, 20 30 years. There were immigrants that were afraid of the Germans, Irish, and Italians. My Norwegian Grandpa repeated Swedish jokes in front of my Grandma. It was good natured ones, though.

The new generations of immigrants are different culturally and racially from the past and expectations of all new immigrants has changed from coming to America the land of the free, to where's my free chit!!!

 

[Billinsd]

I can flip this on you.

More specifically, it is all the major rural areas and the results of generations of people living their entire life with no interaction with other cultures. It is ignorance of the lives and plights of others. It is the resulting air of entitlement that if one complains loud enough and long enough they can create a special interest group and prevent change.

Your generalizations are correct, but you are completely wrong about them being or feeling entitled. They are guilty of not wanting to change and if and when changing, doing it slowly.

 

[sneaky]

Probably a company based in California. Most of the interstate billboards are owned by a handful of companies.

Probably, but who owned that sign in Rock Springs and Vernal? Probably a local, maybe not, I don't know. Whoever owned the sign didn't have to run the ad, I would think. The hotel owner said Rock Springs has some liberals, she said it's mixed. I don't know, but everything else she said makes sense. I didn't like the vibe I got there. However, I didn't really feel chill until Gillette.

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[sneaky]

I can flip this on you.

More specifically, it is all the major rural areas and the results of generations of people living their entire life with no interaction with other cultures. It is ignorance of the lives and plights of others. It is the resulting air of entitlement that if one complains loud enough and long enough they can create a special interest group and prevent change.

You mean, people minding their own damn business and not sticking their noses in other people's? Interesting how that works.

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[sneaky]

We took a vacation up there back in August. I was amazed (not in a good way) at how
Liberal Helena, Bozeman and Missoula were leaning. Very disappointed.
Went in a Fly shop in Wallace, Id. guess who owned it? yep a guy from Cali.
Stopped for lunch at a downtown place in Helena and there was a Homo in a Kilt with B.O. in there
along with several other questionables.
The employees at "Mod Pizza" were at least entertaining.
Where are all the country folk, Cowboys, Rednecks? We sure didn't see any.

If you only went into the larger towns then you bypassed Montana entirely

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[sneaky]

This is wishful thinking

People like to think they are "better" than "others" but there are conservationists and slobs whether you live in the city or rural areas. The worst areas for trash in Colorado are where the locals go and dump their old refrigerators, televisions and couches and shoot them up, leaving it for the rest of us to clean up. These aren't the "city folk" doing that - they're willing to pay taxes to have their trash collected and large item pickup days.

Rural folk may have respect for their local friends, but respect for "outsiders", whether its outside their "town", their religion or their political views is generally slim. Its probably the same proportion of people in the cities that respect others, its just easier to see the bad when people are tightly grouped together rather than spread out over vast areas.



I guarantee you come from an immigrant family. This country was built on immigrants. Most just want a decent life and are willing to work for it. So who has lost site of their roots?

Pretty liberal with that generalization paint brush aren't you? Like stereotyping people much?

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[Billinsd]

You mean, people minding their own damn business and not sticking their noses in other people's? Interesting how that works.

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Rural people are famous for being nosey and gossiping of other locals. They also don't interact with other people. I was reading something about the highline area of Montana. When I first heard of it, it was a body shop called high line collision. I thought, hmmmmmm, to me highline means to bypass a water or sewer line. I thought highline was some petroleum line, lol. It's a lonely highway. I read that there are people with the same last name that live in tiny towns along the highline that are related but pronounce their name differently.