Wolves are bad???

[Wagondriver]

Idaho manages wolves. With a year round season, unlimited bag, cheap tags, there are still too many wolves. I've only been here a couple of years after escaping communist Colorado, I find country all the time that is prime elk habitat, yet there are no elk. I have talked with many people who all tell the same story, before the wolves, there were elk all over.
Watch the video interview of the IDF&G guy that has shot over 200 wolves, pretty eye opening.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Amazing Canada has any ungulates with all their wolves...

What do you think accounts for the difference? Observation bias? Or something different about the predator-prey relationship in each place?

 

[journeyman713]

What do the wolves eat now that the deer are gone?

Fluffy little pets and livestock, no issues.

Word on the street is, they’re talking about wolves being able to eat people now and then, without repercussions.

 

[Quandary]

The Europeans have it right. In today's world there is no rational reason to have wolves. The only reason to support the introduction of a wolf population is to eliminate big hunt hunting. Unfortunately it will come at the cost of a few women hikers killed by wolf packs, then we will see a quick change in attitude of the environmental left.

 

[EdP]

"There were elk all over before the wolves." Maybe there were too many elk for the habitat to support, like in Wy where they have feed grounds to help keep the elk away from ranchers hay and we need a better balance. Human habitation has changed the habitat by fencing, growing and harvesting forage, and raising domestic livestock. When wolves were introduced and then not managed (due to activist judges), the oversupply of ungulates allowed for a wolf population explosion that decimated the ungulate population. No surprise that wolves turn to domestic livestock instead of choosing to starve. Given the changes to habitats due to human expansion, I would rather see ungulate populations controlled by hunting, but hunting is a declining hobby. Maybe wolves are a reasonable answer but they have to be properly managed and spending huge $ to avoid killing a few wolves that end up being killed anyway is just stupid. We, as taxpayers, should be screaming about it.

 

[prairieboy]

Amazing Canada has any ungulates with all their wolves...

wolves have moved south in my home province big time the last 20 years. As you would expect, deer numbers tanked. areas with wolves have deer, but not even half of what they once had. We kill every wolf we can. coyotes too. Coyote population exploded(further south where we have no wolves) when the price for pelts went to nothing a few years back. whitetail twins are suddenly very uncommon come fall...........

 

[JREG19]

I am for the reintroduction of wolves. It's not fair. They were here first, they deserve to be here.

That's why I propose we reintroduce them to Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, New York City, Chicago, Boston, Minneapolis, and most importantly Washington D.C.

 

[Speaks]

What do you think accounts for the difference? Observation bias? Or something different about the predator-prey relationship in each place?

I think its a bit of a complicated issue and personal observations dont really tell the story. I am also from MN and spend plenty of time up north though lately spend more time in NW WI.

First MN and WI have a ton of Wolves, far more than any Western state outside of ID (I think this is correct though I might be wrong) I think the estimates are 4,000 in MN and 3,000 in WI and in both states they are very concentrated in the northern areas.

Wolves can and do impact deer population though severe tends to be localized and temporary, changes in local pack demographics can impact deer both ways.

Its worth keeping in mind that deer are non-native to this area. There were very few if any 150 years ago when it was largely coniferous forest. After it was all logged off and was replaced by hardwood forest the elk disappeared, the moose population shrank and white tail moved in. These white tail also had negative impact on moose populations.

I think there is reasonable evidence that logging practices and agg practices, and winter weather patterns, have more impact on deer populations than wolves do at least broadly speaking. Wolf populations have also been relatively stable for quite some time (again speaking broadly over MN not locally) yet are blamed for deer population (or more frequently hunter success outcomes) that dont correspond to any change in wolf populations.

A note on livestock that I have always had trouble reconciling with the Western experience as well. You dont hear about extensive livestock predation here. There is a lone dairy farm 4 miles up the road from my cabin. Its surrounded by nothing but timber in all directions for miles. We have high wolf population density and I personally observed several last year which was unusual. My more reliable barometer which is amount and freshness of wolf shit on logging trails while grouse hunting also shows its quite high right now. Most people say deer populations are low right now. That rancher almost never looses cows or even calfs to wolves.

I do believe state management should be allowed as well as there being some current need to curtail populations. I am also not seeing any type of crisis. I think curtailing or logging driven by paper mills closing as we move more and more things digital is the big driver of deer population trends.

My experience here may have no bearing at all with what is seen out west.

 

[gbflyer]

I think its a bit of a complicated issue and personal observations dont really tell the story. I am also from MN and spend plenty of time up north though lately spend more time in NW WI.

First MN and WI have a ton of Wolves, far more than any Western state outside of ID (I think this is correct though I might be wrong) I think the estimates are 4,000 in MN and 3,000 in WI and in both states they are very concentrated in the northern areas.

Wolves can and do impact deer population though severe tends to be localized and temporary, changes in local pack demographics can impact deer both ways.

Its worth keeping in mind that deer are non-native to this area. There were very few if any 150 years ago when it was largely coniferous forest. After it was all logged off and was replaced by hardwood forest the elk disappeared, the moose population shrank and white tail moved in. These white tail also had negative impact on moose populations.

I think there is reasonable evidence that logging practices and agg practices, and winter weather patterns, have more impact on deer populations than wolves do at least broadly speaking. Wolf populations have also been relatively stable for quite some time (again speaking broadly over MN not locally) yet are blamed for deer population (or more frequently hunter success outcomes) that dont correspond to any change in wolf populations.

A note on livestock that I have always had trouble reconciling with the Western experience as well. You dont hear about extensive livestock predation here. There is a lone dairy farm 4 miles up the road from my cabin. Its surrounded by nothing but timber in all directions for miles. We have high wolf population density and I personally observed several last year which was unusual. My more reliable barometer which is amount and freshness of wolf shit on logging trails while grouse hunting also shows its quite high right now. Most people say deer populations are low right now. That rancher almost never looses cows or even calfs to wolves.

I do believe state management should be allowed as well as there being some current need to curtail populations. I am also not seeing any type of crisis. I think curtailing or logging driven by paper mills closing as we move more and more things digital is the big driver of deer population trends.

My experience here may have no bearing at all with what is seen out west.

Very good description. Thank you.

A word on dairy cows: They aren’t generally roaming around freely in a pasture, exposed to predators. Maybe they do it different there. Round them up 2 times a day? Probably not.


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[Q_Sertorius]

Very good description. Thank you.

A word on dairy cows: They aren’t generally roaming around freely in a pasture, exposed to predators. Maybe they do it different there. Round them up 2 times a day? Probably not.


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I definitely think that free-ranging cattle over thousands of acres of ranch land is very different than the few hundred acre beef cattle farm on which I grew up.

 

[gbflyer]

Idaho manages wolves. With a year round season, unlimited bag, cheap tags, there are still too many wolves. I've only been here a couple of years after escaping communist Colorado, I find country all the time that is prime elk habitat, yet there are no elk. I have talked with many people who all tell the same story, before the wolves, there were elk all over.
Watch the video interview of the IDF&G guy that has shot over 200 wolves, pretty eye opening.

Hunting won’t effectively control the population of wolves. The way to do it is to locate and poison the dens. Talk about a PR shitstorm.


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[Colorado Cowboy]

Kill um all!

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I don’t like wolves or other apex predators. They should not be protected species. The ones we choose to keep around should be “naturally selected” to avoid humans. But if one result of having them around is that large ranches have to consolidate their herds or hire more people to protect their herds, I am just fine with that. I am not fine with not letting ranchers shoot them, while subsidizing ranchers for wolf losses.

 

[LCguy]

I think there is reasonable evidence that logging practices and agg practices, and winter weather patterns, have more impact on deer populations than wolves do at least broadly speaking.

Bingo. Wasn't wolves that caused localized elk extinctions in the late 1800s/early 1900s. Easier to place blame on what is easily visible (wolves) versus habitat degradation due to logging and ag practices. It's not wolves that compete with wild ungulates for forage and water....

Not saying that wolves should be able to get out of control but blaming wolves for everything ignores the symptoms of a much deeper issue.

Editing real quick to add that it is a much more nuanced issue than "wolves bad!" It involves predator management, range management, fire management, etc. It is a preponderance of issues that is much easier to blame on predators than to actually to take a nuanced approach to.

 

[Speaks]

Very good description. Thank you.

A word on dairy cows: They aren’t generally roaming around freely in a pasture, exposed to predators. Maybe they do it different there. Round them up 2 times a day? Probably not.


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At this particular farm they are. They have two fields of about 150 acres each (they are fenced though dont even have gates just open). They dont round them up, they come in twice a day on their own. They do round them up and swap fields about once a week. Its a small family operation.

Most small operations around here work more or less like this.

 

[Quandary]

As a Wisconsin resident with a lot of friends that have up north places the recurring drum beat is the wolve population has destroyed the deer population. There also exists an unwritten rule with respect to uncollared wolves.....

 

[NRA4LIFE]

My place I am co-owner of in Northern WI is now near devoid of deer.

 

[welkin]

The Europeans have it right. In today's world there is no rational reason to have wolves. The only reason to support the introduction of a wolf population is to eliminate big hunt hunting. Unfortunately it will come at the cost of a few women hikers killed by wolf packs, then we will see a quick change in attitude of the environmental left.

I can tell you are very informed on Europe's approach to wolves.

 

[Quandary]

Years ago they worked hard trying to eradicate them. Not aware if the lefty whack job environmentalist's have screwed any of those countries up. Wouldn't surprise me if they have.