Winter Kill/ Changing Plans

[Packer9037]

Pretty sure these animals have survived hard winters for longer than any of us have been alive...maybe a few less animals here or there, but if you put in the work you can find them. I'm going hunting.

 

[hiker270]

Got an email last friday on Wyoming's modified season proposals. Antelope and deer tag allocations have been cut or closed completely in many units.

 

[Eastcoasthunter94]

I looked at the elk quota numbers in Wyoming and there were very few reductions. Most units the elk are over objective in the state. I would go hunt elk if you can

 

[WRO]

Elk are dieing, I’ve got friends sending me pictures of dead bulls all over the place.


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[cnelk]

Pretty sure these animals have survived hard winters for longer than any of us have been alive...maybe a few less animals here or there, but if you put in the work you can find them. I'm going hunting.

You do know the average lifespan of elk/deer isnt very long right?

 

[thatmountaindad]

No change to my plans, there are a lot of other mitigating factors for me that make the tag allotment changes a non-issue.

1. Currently banking preference points, and my 2nd and 3rd choice are based on familiarity of the GMU.
2. If I go OTC, I am still going to a GMU I have spent time in
3. The areas I want to hunt all have seen big snow totals, not sure it’s possible to assess which herd in which area fared best. I’d rather just rely on scouting during summer.

 

[Packer9037]

You do know the average lifespan of elk/deer isnt very long right?

Apologies for not clarifying....I meant the species overall. I understand that a fawn or calf born this spring will probably die before me unless I'm the one hunting them. Then they'll be safe for much longer.

 

[FlareBlitz91]

Well i won’t be hunting antelope in Wyoming probably, but otherwise no changes to my plans.

 

[WRO]

Elk adult winterkill is fractional compared to deer/antelope.

It's pretty bad, I'm getting lots of pictures of dead elk from all over the west.

 

[FlareBlitz91]

Seriously though I’m not sure if this helps any NR’s make a choice or not about refunding a tag, but from I-15 in southern idaho you can see the dead mule deer littering the hillsides.

I’d actually be very curious to see how the number of vehicle mortalities increases in years like this too. I’ve seen a lot of deer feeding in exposed vegetation in the median and shoulders of the highway.

 

[S.Clancy]

It's pretty bad, I'm getting lots of pictures of dead elk from all over the west.

So how exactly do you quantify those?

I saw a couple dozen cows and calves hit on the interstate north of Idaho falls last July in one weekend, does that mean that semis are killing all the elk?

Radio collar data is about the best method of estimating true winter mortality. I'm not aware of any elk radio collar data showing significant mortality in elk, unlike deer and antelope. There is likely higher than normal winter mortality, but when "normal" is low single digits, you could increase that significantly without seeing obvious changes on the landscape.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

After a quick review of the proposed changes in Wy, my impression is that the pronghorn and deer quotas/seasons may be restricted significantly in some areas, but elk quotas/seasons may actually be relaxed in general. If I had elk plans for the fall of 2023, I would not be changing them.

Some of the places I am looking there are more Elk tags than last year...Got make up for rev loss from deer/antelope tag reductions some how....More Elk tags anyone? Folks gonna be disappointed when they finally cash in all their PP for that LE unit they been wanting to hunt and there are more tags issued in that unit this year....

 

[FlareBlitz91]

Some of the places I am looking there are more Elk tags than last year...Got make up for rev loss from deer/antelope tag reductions some how....More Elk tags anyone? Folks gonna be disappointed when they finally cash in all their PP for that LE unit they been wanting to hunt and there are more tags issued in that unit this year....

That’s because those units are still over objective. Some herds literally have 4X the target population.

Unfortunately we all know selling more tags doesn’t necessarily increase harvest, but the other tools in their pocket require longer term planning, agreements, etc.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

That’s because those units are still over objective. Some herds literally have 4X the target population.

So let's issue more tags and push them to private even faster this year. That should get the population under objective. The reason they over objective is access, issuing more tags won't solve that problem. It's only going to add more pressure on the public land in that unit.

 

[WRO]

So how exactly do you quantify those?

I saw a couple dozen cows and calves hit on the interstate north of Idaho falls last July in one weekend, does that mean that semis are killing all the elk?

Radio collar data is about the best method of estimating true winter mortality. I'm not aware of any elk radio collar data showing significant mortality in elk, unlike deer and antelope. There is likely higher than normal winter mortality, but when "normal" is low single digits, you could increase that significantly without seeing obvious changes on the landscape.

Colorado and Wyoming are both reporting significant elk die off.

Idaho doesn't give 2 flying F's.

If you live in a place for 30 years and don't ever remember seeing dead elk in any numbers, then the guy who lives there finds twenty dead in the last month, or in the case of a rancher I know in SE Idaho, he's hauled out over 100 dead this year, its a reasonable assumption that significant amounts of elk are dieing.

You keep looking for studies though.

 

[S.Clancy]

Colorado and Wyoming are both reporting significant elk die off.

Idaho doesn't give 2 flying F's.

If you live in a place for 30 years and don't ever remember seeing dead elk in any numbers, then the guy who lives there finds twenty dead in the last month, or in the case of a rancher I know in SE Idaho, he's hauled out over 100 dead this year, its a reasonable assumption that significant amounts of elk are dieing.

You keep looking for studies though.

Biology by anecdote, sounds great.

 

[WRO]

Biology by anecdote, sounds great.

I’m guess you listened to fauci too..

 

[S.Clancy]

I’m guess you listened to fauci too..

Guessing*, Guessed*....

But, I read the applicable peer reviewed literature, which was not explicitly followed by our govt.

 

[WRO]

Biology by anecdote, sounds great.

How far has biology from college trained biologist got us?

I’ll wait..

 

[S.Clancy]

How far has biology from college trained biologist got us?

I’ll wait..

Well, it recovered game animal populations from extinction track to the populations we have today. It's shown us the importance of habitat fragmentation and migration routes for elk, mule deer, antelope etc.

The problem is people blame biologists for sociological problems. If you've ever participated in season setting, big game commission meetings, legislative meetings etc, you would know that the arguments are based on money, opportunities, what groups get what instead of what's in the best interest of the resource. If we didn't have scientists and stewards for the resource we would have no wildlife left.

And honestly, all science gets shit on, not just wildlife science. Very few people sit back and realize that the scientific process has produced the life they live today. Plumbers, electricians, builders, cars, shipping routes, drugs, medicine, workouts, literally every single good thing has been produced by trained scientists. Sure, a tiny fractional percentage were brilliant enough to do it without formal education, but the teaching of scientific method and statistical inference in universities is critical to everything, including wildlife management. And yet, there is always troglodytes arguing against it's utility....