Wind shirt vs softshell

[Macintosh]

Curious about people’s read on this. I see a lot of people dissing softshell jackets. At the same time I see a lot of people using “windshirts” like the BD Alpine Start Hoody. Ive seen it enough that Im curious what people see as the difference between a windshirt vs a softshell.

“Softshell” was originally a stretch woven nylon fabric that was somewhat wind and lightly weather resistant. Most of the popular hunting pants now are “softshells”, just think of that fabric in jacket form. It was only later that membranes and fleece linings and such were added to try to make them more weather resistant or warmer in order to appeal to a less technical audience. Jackets like the BD alpine start hoody are precisely what I mean when I use the term “softshell”. I cut my teeth in the late 80’s and early 90’s when softshells first took off, and it was lightweight stretch woven pants and jackets like the alpine start that found their way into my kit. More recently it seems this type of lighter, more breatheable type of softshell is harder to find in jacket form, but I still havent found anything better for a lot of conditions.

But now I see people calling jackets like this a “wind layer”. Some of those folks Im fairly sure Ive heard say they dont like softshells. I think we must be using the term differently? As far as I can tell, most of these folks DO like softshells, they’re just calling it a wind layer. But even BD refers to their alpine start hoody as a “softshell”.

So is this purely semantics due to the prevalence of heavier, non-breatheable “softshells” having corrupted the term beyond repair?
@mtwarden Im particularly curious to hear your take on this.

 

[Speaks]

i generally think of a softshell as a bit thicker than a wind shirt. Soft shell = OR Ferrozi while a wind shirt = Patagonia Hudini.

The alpine start maybe in between but more of a soft shell.

People call stuff like the Jet stream soft shell but I generally would not if using the term correctly.

 

[wapitibob]

Best of both, Sitka V2 Mountain jacket although a bit thin for an insulating softshell.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

Have used both - my experience and opinion has narrowed how I use them over time. They kind of get applied the same way but a wind shirt/softSHELL (read, not lined) is for higher aerobic or output work while the fleece lined/windproof (read, insulated) is for more start/stop, variable type work.

Thats how I think of it. With the prevalence of higher breathability type hybrid mid layers or active insulation, pairing the light softshell or wind shirt like a BD Alpine start provides a pretty wide range of temp use. This basically weighs what a heavier insulted or windproof softshell can weigh (some are heavier).

I see uses for both. I still like using an insulated soft shell in certain cases (rifle day hunting in later season) where I’m wearing it literally all day and not carrying a storm shell. Anything multi-day/backpack no way. BUT the lighter unlined softSHELL or wind shirt fits a lot better for that specific case.

 

[Macintosh]

i generally think of a softshell as a bit thicker than a wind shirt. Soft shell = OR Ferrozi while a wind shirt = Patagonia Hudini.

The alpine start maybe in between but more of a soft shell.

People call stuff like the Jet stream soft shell but I generally would not if using the term correctly.

I agree. Ferrosi is clearly a softshell. Actually very similar to alpine start. Those are classic softshell fabrics exactly as Ive always understood it.
Houdini I would call a windshirt too—harder fabric, no stretch. It’s missing the “soft” part.
And yeah, jetstream, etc are much more prevalent now. Those all have a membrane and/or a fleece lining, making them a really different category that is heavier, bulkier, less focused on breatheability and layering. Im wondering if most of these people who say they dont like softshells are including the classic stretch woven softshell fabrics, or if they’ve used them…or if theyre referring only to jackets made from the membrane fabrics, and considering stuff like alpine start, ferrosi, a different category.

 

[Poser]

BD Alpine Start:

lots of use in the high country during the summer when it’s a bit cool, almost always a breeze and maybe some mosquitoes, too.
Lots of use in the winter when ski touring on mild blue bird days. Spring skiing at the resorts when it’s hot AF, but you still need to cut the wind a bit on the downhill. Light enough to basically always have with you.

insulated Alpine Start: colder temps, cloudy days, and/or light moisture. Should be a great layer for turkey season, in particular. Still new to this version, but it’s going to be closer to the working definition of a soft shell vs. being just a wind shirt.
You could have this layer and not worry about owning a true soft shell.


True soft shell such as the Kuiu Guide or SG headwall: when weather is particularly cold and particularly nasty: sleet, freezing rain, snow. When you are on the move, putting out some heat and need a breathable layer but it’s cold enough that you won’t overheat in the shell + base layer. On particularly cold hunts, I may not take this layer off at all -sleep in it, wear it all day. Can buy you some amount of time for stop and go: to glass or on a stalk. Much heavier to carry vs. the wind shirts so not something I bring unless I’m sure I’ll wear it. Nice option to have in the jacket quiver, but not a necessity. Great for casual wear, though, maybe even a necessary layer for living in a mountain town.

I hate wearing hard shells unless I have to, so I like having all 3 options.

 

[Macintosh]

True soft shell such as the Kuiu Guide or SG headwall

Ok, this is what Im talking about. To me, these are exactly what a “true softshell” ISNT. To me the “true softshell” is the lighter stretch woven wind layer like the alpine start, with all of the membrane fabrics and fleece-lined fabrics being something different, a far more casual/less outdoor category that doesnt have the versatility or functionality that defines a softshell. Semantics, but this is exactly what Im trying to understand. If the term softshell has evolved to the point that it is truly defined by these heavier and less breatheable jackets, then yeah, I can see why people dont really care for them and call the lighter more breatheable options something different…even if I think this is clearly a miscategorization.

 

[Speaks]

Ok, this is what Im talking about. To me, these are exactly what a “true softshell” ISNT. To me the “true softshell” is the lighter stretch woven wind layer like the alpine start, with all of the membrane fabrics and fleece-lined fabrics being something different, a far more casual/less outdoor category that doesnt have the versatility or functionality that defines a softshell. Semantics, but this is exactly what Im trying to understand. If the term softshell has evolved to the point that it is truly defined by these heavier and less breatheable jackets, then yeah, I can see why people dont really care for them and call the lighter more breatheable options something different…even if I think this is clearly a miscategorization.

I think in the hunting world you will mostly hear this, look at product labeling as well where the companies call them softshell.

Now pop over into the mountaineering world and everyone would be 100% aligned with your definition.

I prefer yours as its more specific, you get a wind shirt that is a specific thing, a softshell that is a specific thing, a hard shell that is a specific thing, and then perhaps the other ones like a Jet stream are just "an insulated jacket" or insulated soft shell.

In most circumstances I prefer a true soft shell for layering with insulation and shell being separate, though I do have a blaze jet stream I use hunting and is fine. But if they sold a decent true softshell in blaze I would prefer it.

Its funny I have some orvis jackets, the "softshell" is heavily insulated and stiff, the other one (i forget the name) is a true softshell but not called that.

 

[mtwarden]

No one definition that I'm aware of.

IMHO I consider the Alpine Start a heavier (more durable) windshirt, "heavier" being compared the very lightest wind shirts.

When I think soft-shell I think something along the lines of the Sitka Jetstream. Goretex Windstopper with a brushed lining. Very little breathability (except for dumping heat via the main zippers and pitzips) and highly water resistant. Also we're talking 26 oz (vs ~8 oz for the Alpine Start)

Like @Poser I've found that in the hunting realm (and elsewhere) that there are occasions where a true soft-shell can come in very handy—very cold weather, very windy weather and/or lots of lighter precipitation (drizzle, wet snow, etc).

I have an old Sitka Flash pullover (Windstopper, but no brushed lining and no pitzips)—I found this makes a great piece to carry in lieu of a rain jacket—when you have a very favorable forecast that excludes much rain. Windstopper is very water resistant. The old Flash only weighs 8 oz . I don't know what to call it—windshirt, soft-shell, "rain jacket light"????

 

[TaperPin]

When I’ve gone to an industrial sewing supply store with 1000s of remnant fabrics (small quantity left overs from big commercial sewing shops, sometime prototype fabrics I’ve never seen on any products) the variety in composition is so vast any black/white definition seems to not convey the variety. I now think of every fabric as on a continuum in any way they can be measured. Membranes, bonded layers, coatings, weave, weave tightness, type of fabric, micro coatings on the thread prior to weaving, all of it. Manufacturers must now be able to specify anything along a continuum to suppliers with computerized looms and get custom fabrics. Even unmarked remnant thread spools can be hard to identify what kind of material it is, but it’s been fun like exploring uncharted territory. Something that looked like polyester broke at a higher strength than nylon, but was not purely a high strength material. I used to think industrial thread was only produced in 69, 92, 138, etc weights, but every imaginable weight is actually made if you’re having a big custom lot made.

 

[Macintosh]

@mtwarden clearly you’re right, there’s no one definition, but if you and multiple others are saying “true softshells” are precisely the opposite of what I always considered to be “true” softshells, then it seems to me the consensus definition has changed.

If I want to describe the apparel category that is defined by jackets like the alpine start hoody—stretch woven, uninsulated, non-bonded, non-laminated fabrics that put a priority on breatheability, but sheds very light precip or snow, and blocks some wind….what should I be calling this nowadays to be understood?

 

[mtwarden]

I call them windshirts, but I could be wrong

 

[Poser]

I think in the hunting world you will mostly hear this, look at product labeling as well where the companies call them softshell.

Now pop over into the mountaineering world and everyone would be 100% aligned with your definition.

Soft shells of a similar/same design as the hunting brands are extremely popular for backcountry skiing/ski mountaineering and ice climbing as the breathability : insulation ratio works for sustained output in colder temps.

Mammut: https://www.mammut.com/us/en/products/1011-02740-40283/mtn-pro-2-0-so-hooded-jacket-men

Dynafit: https://www.dynafit.com/en-us/ridge...en-08-0000071864?sku=08-0000071864_0000000022

Arcterx: https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/gamma-mx-hoody-8485?categories=Shell+Jackets

Black Diamond Dawn Patrol: https://www.backcountry.com/black-diamond-dawn-patrol-shell-mens

The difference between The BD Dawn Patrol and, say the Kuiu Guide jacket is negligible. All of these brands market these jackets as "soft shells" and they are all 2 layer, 4 way stretch with brushed fleece interior. In the right conditions, these types of jackets are super practical, but it needs to be COLD and you need to be working hard for them to work as intended.

 

[Macintosh]

Yeah, not saying the other stuff doesnt have a place or ISNT a softshell. For better or worse there is nothing else to call it, so its all softshell…everything from the lighter weight original softshells aka “wind layer”, all the way to the “stretch hardshells”, and every step in between…unfortunately its all “softshell” so in the bigger picture no one has a clue what any fabric actually does…so it may very well be sort of a junk phrase at this point. At least “hardshell” has a specific criteria and focus, ie if it aint waterproof you cant call it a hardshell. (Yes, am aware of mm water column, etc…still…). My question was more around the frequent statements I see that “I have no use for a softshell”, “I dont like softshells” (see the “gear Id never use again” thread for numerous examples)…what Im trying to understand is that in some cases these statements are from people who swear by softshell pants, and are totally open to a stretch woven “wind layer”. The question came more from a place of trying to get to peoples understanding of the term, knowing that its a broad category at best.
I worked for one of the companies mentioned above for 20 years, including during the very early 2000’s when softshell was relatively new to the US outside very specific niche uses. I met and worked with the guy who designed the very first schoeller guide pants in the 1970’s. A different company called cloudveil got their name on the map by going to europe and seeing every mountain guide wearing schoeller dryskin pants ( aka “guide pants”,“softshell pants”, which are essentially what nearly all of the hunting pants available now are). They had the idea to use the same fabric in a jacket, and that one product put the company on the map, and really is what started the softshell trend in the US. That jacket was a little heavier but extremely close to the BD alpine start hoody of today. From whenever someone first used the term “softshell” until about 1998 that was the ONLY fabric marketed as a softshell—thats why my definition of softshell is skewed toward that end of the spectrum. It seems the majority definition has become skewed more to the other end of the spectrum is all.

 

[Clarktar]

Soft shells of a similar/same design as the hunting brands are extremely popular for backcountry skiing/ski mountaineering and ice climbing as the breathability : insulation ratio works for sustained output in colder temps.

Mammut: https://www.mammut.com/us/en/products/1011-02740-40283/mtn-pro-2-0-so-hooded-jacket-men

Dynafit: https://www.dynafit.com/en-us/ridge...en-08-0000071864?sku=08-0000071864_0000000022

Arcterx: https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/gamma-mx-hoody-8485?categories=Shell+Jackets

Black Diamond Dawn Patrol: https://www.backcountry.com/black-diamond-dawn-patrol-shell-mens

The difference between The BD Dawn Patrol and, say the Kuiu Guide jacket is negligible. All of these brands market these jackets as "soft shells" and they are all 2 layer, 4 way stretch with brushed fleece interior. In the right conditions, these types of jackets are super practical, but it needs to be COLD and you need to be working hard for them to work as intended.

Heads up that the Mammut jacket is 50% off and free shipping.

 

[fngTony]

What I call a traditional soft shell is really stiff, heavy and just uncomfortable. They weren’t warm enough and layered poorly. Newer fabrics are softer, more stretchy and cutting down the amount of fleece or eliminating it makes them more versatile imo. Some climbing brands like BlackDiamond, Rab make a wind resistant soft shell fabric with no fleece and it’s very stretchy This I can get behind at 7-10oz vs a fragile wind shirt at 4oz or a traditional soft shell at 24-30 oz.

 

[Ajsomp]

I look at the various levels of layering systems in the Protective Combat Uniform - there’s a difference between the wind shirt and the softshell layers (level 4 wind shirt vs the level 5 “softshell”). So that’s what I base softshell and wind shirt off of.

 

[Macintosh]

Some climbing brands like BlackDiamond, Rab make a wind resistant soft shell fabric with no fleece and it’s very stretchy This I can get behind at 7-10oz vs a fragile wind shirt at 4oz or a traditional soft shell at 24-30 oz.

Thats exactly what Im saying—these lighter versions have been around much longer and were in fact the original softshells. The stiffer, heavier versions are in fact the newcomers. Its the fact that it seems the category is now defined by the heavier versions that threw me for a loop.

 

[mtwarden]

I look at the various levels of layering systems in the Protective Combat Uniform - there’s a difference between the wind shirt and the softshell layers (level 4 wind shirt vs the level 5 “softshell”). So that’s what I base softshell and wind shirt off of.

This was kind of my basis as well. I have a Level 4 military windshirt (made by Patagonia) it’s basically a heavier Houdini—weighs the same as the Alpine Start and very similar performance with wind/precip protection and breathability. The military obviously spec’d it with a heavier denier vs the civilian Houdini. Their Level 5 is heavier, but more wind/precip protection and with less breathability