Why Match/Target Bullets For Hunting

[Formidilosus]

I wouldn't worry about it, if an animal came in my crosshairs, I am pulling the trigger, even with a Berger. I am sure it is a very rare occurrence, it is just one thing to control for or be aware of. Nothing is perfect, but this is certainly very, very rare, to almost be internet myth.

No personal experience, but a top retailer of Proof rifles sells a lot rifle to hunters. I have seen two pictures from him where it looked like a bomb crater on the side of an animal with no penetration. A second shot on the animal was lethal. The common thing was extremely high velocity Berger. One was on a sheep.

I have heard of it around the interwebs before that, but I gave it little thought until he showed me.

Got you.

One thing that does happen is splash back.

That is the tissue splashes around the entrance point kind of like this (pic from AR15.com video). It’s just starting, entrance from the left-


Now the TC is also pushed outward from the entrance-


So with very high velocity and an extremely frangible bullet you can get massive entrance wounds due to the tissue completely rupturing on the entrance side, but would still get penetration to the vitals. If you didn’t know what you were looking at or didn’t look closely, it would seem that the bullet just splashed and did not penetrate. While I’m sure a total failure can happen with a true surface blow up, from what I’ve seen it would be extremely rare and what I think is happening most that report it with heavy Begers don’t know what to look for, or aren’t looking for it.

 

[hereinaz]

Got you.

One thing that does happen is splash back.

That is the tissue splashes around the entrance point kind of like this (pic from AR15.com video). It’s just starting, entrance from the left-
View attachment 256985

Now the TC is also pushed outward from the entrance-
View attachment 256986

So with very high velocity and an extremely frangible bullet you can get massive entrance wounds due to the tissue completely rupturing on the entrance side, but would still get penetration to the vitals. If you didn’t know what you were looking at or didn’t look closely, it would seem that the bullet just splashed and did not penetrate. While I’m sure a total failure can happen with a true surface blow up, from what I’ve seen it would be extremely rare and what I think is happening most that report it with heavy Begers don’t know what to look for, or aren’t looking for it.

Ahhh, that may be a valid explanation, I can't say, cause I didn't see the animals. Ultimately, I am just reporting what I have seen, good bad and ugly included. I am not sugar coating what can or might go wrong. I just want to put into context all the rumors, even extremely rare.

Besides poor shot placement, the real problems come from clogged tips and low velocity. Those are easily controlled for. Other than that, the problems are very rare--and all bullets have problems.

Notably, David Tubbs and others have used his "nose ring" which weakens the tip and makes even "closed tip" match bullets like his DTACS perform even more consistently. It becomes more like a tipped version that collapses more of the tip of the bullet. I haven't tried it, but results seem reasonable and verifiable.

Likewise, hunters have been drilling out the tips of Berger's "target" bullets to ensure more consistent expansion with their thicker jackets.

 

[hereinaz]

Interesting historical note for Berger's hunting bullets. Berger now makes "hunting" bullets with "thin" copper jackets and "target" bullets with thicker jackets. But, there is a history to how that happened.

Walt Berger made high quality, precision bullets for "match" target shooters for decades. All of Berger "match" bullets were made with the thin jackets now used in their "hunting" line. Berger as a company saw the excellent results and performance. So, they started marketing their "match" bullets as "hunting" bullets.

At some point, I believe after that, guys shooting at paper targets had some problems with bullets coming apart at super high RMPs. So, Berger then started making their "target" bullets with thicker jackets to prevent the bullets from going "poof" as they came apart from revs too high.

Today, that is the primary difference between "hunting" and "target" bullets when it comes to Berger. And, that is why Berger does not "recommend" their target bullets for hunting. But, there are a lot of guys who use the target bullets to great success. Checking and opening the tip makes them more reliable with the thicker jacket.

 

[hereinaz]

Wind is by far the biggest error that can’t be computed with hard data. However, they’re are techniques and equipment that make it way easier than how most do it





We miss do to the biggest error. In any given shot there are going to be a lot of errors- range errors, MV variation, environmental data errors, angel, etc. But the biggest one for people that have a solid system is wind. The higher BC bullet drifts less in the wind, and therefore whatever error we make in our wind call, shows up as less error on the target.

One way to look at how much WIND is really the problem is to look at the "danger space".

This chart is for a 95 grain Berger VLD at 3000 fps I am hoping to run on my deer rifle. (You can see it is over 1800 fps out to 700 yards, which is the lethal terminal velocity for a Berger.) If you go to JBM ballistics online, you can check the box at the bottom for "danger space" and it will include it in the DOPE. I play with it all the time to look at the realistic numbers for crazy ideas I may have.

In JBM, I entered 12 inches as the "target height". Any hit inside that 12" is an impact. If you look where I highlighted, the "danger space" for that bullet combo if I held/dialed for 300 yards, I would hit the 12" target if it was anywhere from 0 to 365 yards from me. Obviously, if it were closer than 300 I would hit high. and at 365 I would barely clip the bottom of the target. But, that shows you could be off on your range by 65 yards and still hit the target. Ranging is one error, but not as big as wind. As you get further out, the margin of error shrinks, but with modern rangefinders and sneaky methods, you can nail down range pretty solidly in most situations.

Now, danger space is smaller in reality, because that does not take into account if I am shooting a 1 moa rifle and the bullet is in the low side, then it could miss the bottom of the plate by about 1.5+ inches if I doped for 300 but the animal was at 365 yards, because JBM assumes a perfect shot.

But, look at wind. At 600 yards, a 10 mph wind drifts the bullet 25 inches. That is 2.5 inches for every MPH. If you miss the wind call by 4 mph, you miss by 10 inches.

In a canyon, on a mountainside, it is VERY hard to call the wind. There can be multiple wind "calls" in every direction including up and down and multiple speeds. For instance, across a canyon, wind may be coming up towards you at 8 mph because there is friction slowing it down and a feature that turns it slightly up towards you. But as the bullet leaves your immediate location, high up in the canyon winds, it is a full cross wind hundreds off feet off the floor, with no friction the wind could easily be 18 to 20 mph, and on the bullets decent, there may be an eddy as wind is blowing over the top of the hill and around a corner.

A bullet fired into that mess, is not gonna travel a straight line, and if you called it a partial value 8 mph wind quartering toward you based off your Kestrel reading and held for the equivalent of 4 mph, then you missed the wind call by a massive 16 MPH for the full value cross wind, that is a massive miss no matter how you slice it.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Wow, this has been an education. I appreciate all the contributions. A few more questions to kind of close the loop for me. Form, would you advise a hunter against choosing a match bullet unless there was a large body of evidence (in the 77 TMK vein) or the user conducted testing in a ballistic medium? Say Nosler comes up with a new 6mm match bullet, what would it take to give you the confidence it would cleanly kill?

I am of the mindset that there are enough good purpose built hunting bullets out there that there is no reason to try a match bullet. My mind can be changed on that.

 

[Freedom]

I have been using target bullets for the past few years. They have performed well on Elk. This years 225 ELDM at an impact velocity of 2400 fps entered in on the shoulder with some but not extreme meat damage. It broke the shoulder length wise and as it came through the rib bone it had a 3 inch hole. it continued to destroy 90 % of both lungs and busted the of side shoulder length wise also. the bullets was found in the hide on the off side. The Elk took a few strides down hill and piled up.
The year before the bull was shot with a .277 170 grain berger. It was facing directly towards me and the bullet entered at the base of the neck. destroyed all of the lungs. He flipped over and was dead. the bullet did not penetrate the Diaphragm. It was doing 2800 fps. lung tissue came out of the entrance hole. I shoot 1000s of large caliber cast lead bullets that I've seen go through 20 inches of a tree, but I can't complain about how these "Target" bullets have performed.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, would you advise a hunter against choosing a match bullet unless there was a large body of evidence (in the 77 TMK vein) or the user conducted testing in a ballistic medium? Say Nosler comes up with a new 6mm match bullet, what would it take to give you the confidence it would cleanly kill?

Yes, in general I would caution most to not try an unproven bullet out, especially a new match one. Again if if it’s in the same family of already proven bullets and just a new weight offered with no other changes than you’re most likely safe. But if it’s a whole new bullet, without testing it or really understanding what design cause what, I would probably leave it for someone else to experiment with.

As far as your example with a Nosler match 6mm, I can look at them and have a pretty good idea as to what it will do just by the jacket thickness, nose opening, and shape. But I rarely use any new projectile on game anymore without first seeing it properly tested in ballistics gel. Once I see what it does in gel, I’m good

I am of the mindset that there are enough good purpose built hunting bullets out there that there is no reason to try a match bullet. My mind can be changed on that.

That depends on what you are looking for. Manufacturers are still on the recovered bullet picture and penetration train for hunting, not the kill quickly train. If you are hunting at ranges where your impact speed will be above 2,000fps consistently, wind either isn’t a factor or you won’t shoot distance in any wind, and you’re worried about meat loss- I think most would be better served with the softer bonded and/or heavy jacketed non bonded bullets. But if any of that applies to your use- impacts below 2,000fps or wind is a problem, certain match bullets will result in higher hit rates and more tissue damage.
Unfortunately there really isn’t any great 6mm hunting bullets with high BC. The 103gr ELD- is ok, but for 6mm the 105gr Hornady HPBT is solid and a good penetrator, the 95gr TMK is good terminally but BC isn’t as high, the 108gr ELD-M is good, and the 105 and 115gr Bergers are solid. The 115gr DTAC used to be really good before they started pointing them, and with the nose ring I would definitely have that as an option.

 

[Monty3006]

Great information here.

Form, for a 1 in 10 twist .243 for 400 yards and in hunting do you think the 95 NBT would be the way to go?

 

[hereinaz]

This was a Berger hunting 180 vld at 730 yards. Here is the video. I don't know how you can argue with a bullet that will go through 26" inches of vitals and then blow a giant hole in the offside leg. Look at the hole filled with grass... nasty.

 

[EmperorMA]

This was a Berger hunting 180 vld at 730 yards. Here is the video. I don't know how you can argue with a bullet that will go through 26" inches of vitals and then blow a giant hole in the offside leg. Look at the hole filled with grass... nasty.

View attachment 257227View attachment 257228View attachment 257229View attachment 257230

Did you have to throw most of that little deer away?

 

[hereinaz]

Did you have to throw most of that little deer away?

LOL, it was a little more than necessary for sure. But, not a lot of meat ruined. It went in behind the front shoulder and only damaged what you see in the picture of the rear quarter. After that, it convinced me that I only need to carry the 6 BRA I am having built that will shoot the 95 or 108 Bergers and be lethal out to 700+. And, it was one more data point confirming it is all I need for elk and bear (hopefully this year). I can put the bullet where I want it with my 7mm, but I am not as good shooting the same weight rifle in a 300 mag.

 

[Formidilosus]

Great information here.

Form, for a 1 in 10 twist .243 for 400 yards and in hunting do you think the 95 NBT would be the way to go?

Would be for me.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Fartrell, you say you might take a 400 yard shot someday. By that do you mean you practice at 400 and 500 yards, or you may see a buck at 400 and take a shot at him? Just curious what your method of knowing drops and allowing for them are at various distances is? Just curious as I said there are many ways to do it.

Yes, in general I would caution most to not try an unproven bullet out, especially a new match one. Again if if it’s in the same family of already proven bullets and just a new weight offered with no other changes than you’re most likely safe. But if it’s a whole new bullet, without testing it or really understanding what design cause what, I would probably leave it for someone else to experiment with.

As far as your example with a Nosler match 6mm, I can look at them and have a pretty good idea as to what it will do just by the jacket thickness, nose opening, and shape. But I rarely use any new projectile on game anymore without first seeing it properly tested in ballistics gel. Once I see what it does in gel, I’m good




That depends on what you are looking for. Manufacturers are still on the recovered bullet picture and penetration train for hunting, not the kill quickly train. If you are hunting at ranges where your impact speed will be above 2,000fps consistently, wind either isn’t a factor or you won’t shoot distance in any wind, and you’re worried about meat loss- I think most would be better served with the softer bonded and/or heavy jacketed non bonded bullets. But if any of that applies to your use- impacts below 2,000fps or wind is a problem, certain match bullets will result in higher hit rates and more tissue damage.
Unfortunately there really isn’t any great 6mm hunting bullets with high BC. The 103gr ELD- is ok, but for 6mm the 105gr Hornady HPBT is solid and a good penetrator, the 95gr TMK is good terminally but BC isn’t as high, the 108gr ELD-M is good, and of TMK itself the 105 and 115gr Bergers. The 115gr DTAC used to be really good before they started pointing them, and with the nose ring I would definitely have that as an option.

Write a book. Seriously. There is way too much value in your experience and knowledge to be be lost when it falls off of the first page of forums. You also have a way of explaining that make it easily read and understandable.

 

[hereinaz]

Yes, in general I would caution most to not try an unproven bullet out, especially a new match one. Again if if it’s in the same family of already proven bullets and just a new weight offered with no other changes than you’re most likely safe. But if it’s a whole new bullet, without testing it or really understanding what design cause what, I would probably leave it for someone else to experiment with.

As far as your example with a Nosler match 6mm, I can look at them and have a pretty good idea as to what it will do just by the jacket thickness, nose opening, and shape. But I rarely use any new projectile on game anymore without first seeing it properly tested in ballistics gel. Once I see what it does in gel, I’m good




That depends on what you are looking for. Manufacturers are still on the recovered bullet picture and penetration train for hunting, not the kill quickly train. If you are hunting at ranges where your impact speed will be above 2,000fps consistently, wind either isn’t a factor or you won’t shoot distance in any wind, and you’re worried about meat loss- I think most would be better served with the softer bonded and/or heavy jacketed non bonded bullets. But if any of that applies to your use- impacts below 2,000fps or wind is a problem, certain match bullets will result in higher hit rates and more tissue damage.
Unfortunately there really isn’t any great 6mm hunting bullets with high BC. The 103gr ELD- is ok, but for 6mm the 105gr Hornady HPBT is solid and a good penetrator, the 95gr TMK is good terminally but BC isn’t as high, the 108gr ELD-M is good, and of TMK itself the 105 and 115gr Bergers. The 115gr DTAC used to be really good before they started pointing them, and with the nose ring I would definitely have that as an option.

Berger has the new 108s in 6mm. I picked up a couple boxes to try.

 

[Formidilosus]

Berger has the new 108s in 6mm. I picked up a couple boxes to try.

While technically they’re labeling it a hunting bullet, Begers are match bullets in design and performance. Also, it’s equivalent to a 130gr 6.5. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but a 115gr to low 120gr 6mm would put it in the 140+ grain class of 6.5’s ballistically and with that much length, penetration even with a fragmenting bullet would be excellent.

 

[hereinaz]

While technically they’re labeling it a hunting bullet, Begers are match bullets in design and performance. Also, it’s equivalent to a 130gr 6.5. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but a 115gr to low 120gr 6mm would put it in the 140+ grain class of 6.5’s ballistically and with that much length, penetration even with a fragmenting bullet would be excellent.

Yes, correct on the match/hunting explanation on Berger.

It's all application. On deer sized game, the 95 and 108 are plenty to get adequate penetration down to 1800 fps impact velocity. The thread on the .223 77gr TMK demonstrates that it isn't necessarily the size of the bullet, it is impact velocity and bullet construction.

You've explained as well as anyone I have heard say why "match" bullets work. As I see it, three important things to focus on whether a bullet will work are: 1) bullet construction, 2) terminal velocity, and 3) shot placement. One and two define the expected terminal performance in soft tissue. Three is whether you can put the bullet in that soft tissue. My 6mm has all three for my application.

I don't necessarily like the designation "match" bullet, because it is not a useful designation, it doesn't describe the bullet design really, but it is what manufacturers use. Describing the construction is much better, because that is what matters for the type of terminal performance to be expected.

The choice in the 6mm illustrates why there can be different choices--and why sometimes the differences just don't matter beyond internet forums if a guy pokes a hole in an animal under the proper parameters.

The difference in drop between the published factory speeds on the Berger loaded 140 grain 6.5 cm ammo out of a 26" barrel and my baby 6mm BRA running 108 or 95 are within inches of the 6.5 at the same environmental data out to 800. All three are still barely above 1800 fps to 800 yards, but not much more than that. The drop of 108 is 163 inches, the 95 is 148, and the 6.5 cm falls between them at 152. For, wind drift the 6.5 beats the lighter 95 by 8ish inches because of the extra weight and BC of the 6.5. Full disclosure, my 6 BRA data is based off of the best I can guestimate for 22" barreled based off other data found on the interwebs and extrapolating velocity loss with a shorter barrel than typically run on 6BRA target rifles. Sure, you can shoot a shorter barreled 6 prc with 140 and it is a hammer, but you get a lot more recoil than my 6 bra.

Velocity makes up for BC inside 500 yards between the 6 bra and 6.5 cm. My 95 with much worse BC has 1 inch less drop than the 6.5 creedmoor, so it beats it inside 500 for drop. On the flip side, the 95 has 1.2 inches more wind drift than the 140, so the 6.5 cm beats it in wind approaching 500 yards. Most shots are going to be inside 500. And, I can dial for the extra 10 inches of drop at 800 easily. I don't feel like the difference in wind will hurt me that much between 500 and 800, but I do have to give it to the 6.5 for better wind drift numbers.

The practical difference for me is that the 6mm 95 and 108 can be run at about 3000 to 2850 fps respectively and still be above expansion velocity out to 800 yards and fit into a customized mini action Howa-making for a short, compact, ultralight backpack rifle that is super easy to shoot with significantly less recoil than an already easy to shoot 6.5 cm. When you are in hunting situations, having reduced recoil makes for better shooting, especially off tripods. I won't even need a brake to spot shots and watch trace, it will be like shooting a braked 6.5 CM.

That was all based off of the 6 BRA which has significantly less case capacity than the 6 creedmoor. If I shot the 108 or 115 out of the 6 creedmoor or 6xc at 3000 fps or above, it smokes the 6.5 creedmoor. I like to think of the 6 creedmoor/XC/243 like the "magnum" equivalent of the 6.5 PRC (roughly speaking), because that is where you have to go in case capacity in 6.5 to get back to the velocity to out compete the 115 ballistically. It's all relative though, and it is so close that it isn't worth arguing over, but I do love to get into the technical weeds.

At 800 yards, my 7 mag with 180 vld is still over 2000 fps and has about 20 inches less drop with 15 inches less drift than the 6.5 cm. It is still beating it out to 950 yards and remains over 1800 fps to 1000 yards.

I say the reason to go with a bigger caliber is to make a bigger and deeper wound channel for terminal performance on bigger animals and to get less wind drift in external ballistics. Another reason is related, to get more penetration for bad angles on those animals, through heavier bone. Its why I shoot a 7mm 180 vld for elk, bear and caribou, even though a 6mm would kill an elk with a broadside shot. Like I chose the 6mm, I chose the 7mm 180 vld because it is maximized for drop and wind drift at the hunting ranges (I am comfortable shooting out to 800-900 maybe) without the diminishing returns of recoil of a ballistically better ultra mag 7 or .300 with heavier bullets and more powder. It does a satisfying job on caribou and elk by my personal experience. It is far more than enough for deer, which is why I ran the numbers for my typical situation and came to the conclusions I did about going with a 6mm bullet as described above.

Admittedly, I am a sissy, I don't like recoil or muzzle blast, hahahaha, but really, I just choose an adequate cartridge that met my criteria for the purposes. I haven't felt the need to go bigger for "insurance" purposes. Feel free to judge me for that, lol. But, in the end, I am comfortable knowing where I can put a "match" hunting bullet, and that is good enough for me.

 

[Trapperkid]

If I have not suffiently pointed out that match bullets are certainly not all alike, I apologize. They can and are very different from make and model, to even individual models within the same line. The “softest” match bullets are nothing but extremely large varmint bullets. You use weight to get penetration. However, there are lots of “match” bullets that either don’t expand or upset at all, or ones that do so late in the penetration path, and/or are extremely variable in what they do in tissue.

ELD-M’s, TMK’s, etc. all create wounds in shape and behavior similar to this-

View attachment 256910

The exact penetration and width will vary based on the caliber, weight, and velocity, but their similar. As an example, the above is a 175gr TMK from a 308. This is 77gr TMK from a 223/5.55-
View attachment 256917

The behavior is nearly identical, just the depth and width are slightly different.


Now compare those to this (175gr Sierra MatchKing)
View attachment 256919

And the 77gr SMK-
View attachment 256921

The two TMK’s have near immediate expansion (zero neck length) the SMKs have penetrated 5.5 and 3.25 inches before upsetting at all. If SMK’s did that consistently (Berger VLD’s do) , they would work fine. The problem is that due to inconsistencies in the nose, SMK’s are extremely variable- some upset almost immediately, some penetrate several inches as above befor upsetting, and some penetrate quite deeply before tumbling and fragmenting if they do so at all.

This representation from Gary Robert’s shows that-
View attachment 256922

The dark colored tracks are the permanent wound, the non shaded outlines are the temp cavity.

The main most common match bullets that I would use for hunting-

1) Heavy weight Hornady Amax/ELD-M’s and Atips.

2). Heavy Sierra Tipped Matchkings

3). Berger VLD’s and Hybrid Hunters. Also Targets and OTM’s if velocity is high enough.

4). Lapua Scenars.



The Eld-M’s and TMK’s will feature rapid and immediate expansion/fragmentation and around 16-22 inches of penetration depending on impact velocity. Berger’s are different. They penetrate several inches, usually 3-6”, before the nose collapses in and then they fragment violently. They will penetrate that 3-6” through pretty much any part of an animal before fragmenting. Scenars are some of the “hardest” match bullets and tend to penetrate the most, with a narrow wound channel than the others. I do not favor them, but they do kill well and consistently.

Wow you are very very knowledgeable I can't wait to read more of your informative posts.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Got you.

One thing that does happen is splash back.

That is the tissue splashes around the entrance point kind of like this (pic from AR15.com video). It’s just starting, entrance from the left-
View attachment 256985

Now the TC is also pushed outward from the entrance-
View attachment 256986

So with very high velocity and an extremely frangible bullet you can get massive entrance wounds due to the tissue completely rupturing on the entrance side, but would still get penetration to the vitals. If you didn’t know what you were looking at or didn’t look closely, it would seem that the bullet just splashed and did not penetrate. While I’m sure a total failure can happen with a true surface blow up, from what I’ve seen it would be extremely rare and what I think is happening most that report it with heavy Begers don’t know what to look for, or aren’t looking for it.

I have tried to explain this to people. Great stuff Form.

 

[BjornF16]

@Formidilosus

Regarding Hydrostatic or Hydraulic Shock...I certainly don't have your amount of experience, but I have observed the following shooting the relatively low velocity 6.5 Grendel with 129 SST.

MV around 2500 fps. Shots inside 200 yds.

Shots to Texas Whitetail deer (100-130 lbs) that occurred behind shoulder into the vitals typically resulted in a short run then collapse. Skinning revealed nothing unusual in the various blood vessels.

Shots to same critters at base of neck (just forward of brisket) resulted in immediate drop. Skinning revealed popped blood vessels throughout the carcass.

Anecdotal evidence, I know. No pictures to show. But I attributed this to the equivalent of "water hammer" effect. Shooting into dense muscle (neck) imparted shock to the cardiovascular system. Shooting into soft vitals didn't really impart any shock (at least at these particular velocities) to the cardiovascular system (like slowly closing water faucet; soft tissue acted as buffer).

How would you explain this? What am I missing?

 

[EmperorMA]

@Formidilosus

Regarding Hydrostatic or Hydraulic Shock...I certainly don't have your amount of experience, but I have observed the following shooting the relatively low velocity 6.5 Grendel with 129 SST.

MV around 2500 fps. Shots inside 200 yds.

Shots to Texas Whitetail deer (100-130 lbs) that occurred behind shoulder into the vitals typically resulted in a short run then collapse. Skinning revealed nothing unusual in the various blood vessels.

Shots to same critters at base of neck (just forward of brisket) resulted in immediate drop. Skinning revealed popped blood vessels throughout the carcass.

Anecdotal evidence, I know. No pictures to show. But I attributed this to the equivalent of "water hammer" effect. Shooting into dense muscle (neck) imparted shock to the cardiovascular system. Shooting into soft vitals didn't really impart any shock (at least at these particular velocities) to the cardiovascular system (like slowly closing water faucet; soft tissue acted as buffer).

How would you explain this? What am I missing?

There is a really good chance that your are hitting the relatively hard bones of the spine or shoulders on the neck shot. Small shards of bone can do tremendous damage to surrounding tissue and cause dramatic DRTs.