Why Match/Target Bullets For Hunting

[Marbles]

Penetration is subjective based on the role. According to a podcast with Dr Roberts on primary&secondary (idk the episode) engineers making defensive and law enforcement ammunition seek barrier blindness on things like thick clothing and furniture. While at the same time they don’t want pass throughs on bodies that could impact innocents in a crowd or across the block. Military requirements like steel tip is something else entirely.

Hence if you want a pass through with a blood trail, maybe look elsewhere.

The point prior being that its a fallacy that some believe a round deemed adequate by ammunition manufacturers for use on dangerous 120-220lb apes, is somehow also inadequate for a 120-220lb ungulate… It is, like traditional hunting ammo, perfectly adequate when used within its design thresholds.

Agreed on that last point. It should be a QR code on the front of every box of ammo sold.

I am in agreement with your original point, but I was not clear on that.

I was amused at the responses following your point that basically said humans die easier than game animals, and implying that what is adequate for a 240 pound war ape that can return the favor by killing without closing distance is somehow inadequate for a 240 pound ungulate.

 

[PBBananaHammock]

I am in agreement with your original point, but I was not clear on that.

I was amused at the responses following your point that basically said humans die easier than game animals, and implying that what is adequate for a 240 pound war ape that can return the favor by killing without closing distance is somehow inadequate for a 240 pound ungulate.

I figured as much but wasn’t entirely sure! Haha.

Peoples resistance is understandable. No ones out here trying to mame animals (i hope), but we are all at different points in our journeys and victims to the Dunning-Kruger Effect. 5 years in the future we’ll all look back at our past selves as ignorant to what we’ll learn tomo.

Its also not like ammunition manufacturers help in this confusion at all, which just muddies the issue further.

 

[pilgrim7]

Flyjunky, for the sake of information to file away, what was the specific ttsx that penciled, and the velocity/range? Probably goes without asking, but you did recover the animals shot with the ttsx when they penciled and there was an unexpanded bullet diameter hole through the vitals of the animals?

Pa

The issue is that there are so many myths, misconceptions, and outright falsehoods in regards to terminal ballistics that he writes, let alone what he has wrote in his books about rifles, that all of it must be viewed with a very critical eye. So critical, that most people could not decipher real, observable and measurable effects; from old wives tales and outdated long medically disproven theories.


There are links in this thread IIRC that take you straight to the most comprehensive temrinal ballistics research, by the largest terminal ballistics lab on earth, with all of it being medically peer reviewed data that totally refuted things he writes and shows medically why it isn’t real.

I figured as much but wasn’t entirely sure! Haha.

Peoples resistance is understandable. No ones out here trying to mame animals (i hope), but we are all at different points in our journeys and victims to the Dunning-Kruger Effect. 5 years in the future we’ll all look back at our past selves as ignorant to what we’ll learn tomo.

Its also not like ammunition manufacturers help in this confusion at all, which just muddies the issue further.

The point you make about looking at our past selves as ignorant is a good one. It's easy to go with the conventional wisdom, even if you haven't thought about it critically. I'm sitting here thinking about why it is exactly I have so many .30 caliber rifles...

 

[philcox]

Does anyone know how a ELD-M compares performance wise to a TMK? Specifically a 140 ELDM and a 130 TMK out of a 6.5CM. The ELDM traveling about 2830 (don't know what the TMK would be at, as I don't have any

Wondering if the "killing performance" of the TMK would be that much "better" such that worth it to get TMK's (I have a few hundred ELD-M's) currently. @Formidilosus your thoughts?

 

[Hurley88]

6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever else.....

Anyone tried the new AAC line in 6.5 creedmoor from palmetto?

rokslide.com

See post #515.

Actually that’s a great thread to read bc it seems that question was hashed out repeatedly there, in various forms.

 

[philcox]

6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever else.....

Anyone tried the new AAC line in 6.5 creedmoor from palmetto?

rokslide.com

See post #515.

Actually that’s a great thread to read bc it seems that question was hashed out repeatedly there, in various forms.

Great reference. Thanks.

 

[philcox]

I know there is the "no need to shoot anything over a 6.5CM even at distance for hunting" theme going on, and I am not here to argue that. What question I DO have is for those of us who have invested in "bigger stuff". I just built a 7PRC (and the fact that the UM folks are selling custom 7PRC, means they must not be totally worthless), and am wondering what the better (is there a best?) bullet is for that cartridge? Would it be better to push a heavy for caliber bullet, say the 180 ELDM's at 2750 or a lighter 162 @ a faster velocity?

Also, for those of us who are in California, and have to shoot mono, same question: Slower but Heavier, or Faster but Lighter? For the 7PRC is there a weight that you would not go under because if you have a 100y shot, you're only putting pencil holes in the animal.

I think I read that @Formidilosus had said as far as mono's go, the Barnes are not all that bad, but I think there was a "custom" mono maker he liked a bit better, but can't remember it.

 

[Formidilosus]

I know there is the "no need to shoot anything over a 6.5CM even at distance for hunting" theme going on, and I am not here to argue that. What question I DO have is for those of us who have invested in "bigger stuff". I just built a 7PRC (and the fact that the UM folks are selling custom 7PRC, means they must not be totally worthless),

I haven’t seen anyone say they are worthless, though a shop making something chambered in something doesn’t tell you much.

There are no perfect solutions, only tradeoffs, it just happens that for the vast majority of people the trade off for magnums is a poor choice.

and am wondering what the better (is there a best?) bullet is for that cartridge? Would it be better to push a heavy for caliber bullet, say the 180 ELDM's at 2750 or a lighter 162 @ a faster velocity?

189gr ELD-M or 175gr ELD-X. The the only real difference is if you could find some 160gr TMK’s.

Also, for those of us who are in California, and have to shoot mono, same question: Slower but Heavier, or Faster but Lighter? For the 7PRC is there a weight that you would not go under because if you have a 100y shot, you're only putting pencil holes in the animal.

I think I read that @Formidilosus had said as far as mono's go, the Barnes are not all that bad, but I think there was a "custom" mono maker he liked a bit better, but can't remember it.

If I were shooting non lead bullets, I would get caliber that DRT Technology makes.

 

[philcox]

I haven’t seen anyone say they are worthless, though a shop making something chambered in something doesn’t tell you much.

Correct. Too many assumptions on my part.

There are no perfect solutions, only tradeoffs, it just happens that for the vast majority of people the trade off for magnums is a poor choice.

189gr ELD-M or 175gr ELD-X. The the only real difference is if you could find some 160gr TMK’s.

I’ll keep an eye out.

If I were shooting non lead bullets, I would get caliber that DRT Technology makes.

Thx. Decisions …

 

[Bluumoon]

I haven’t seen anyone say they are worthless, though a shop making something chambered in something doesn’t tell you much.

There are no perfect solutions, only tradeoffs, it just happens that for the vast majority of people the trade off for magnums is a poor choice.




189gr ELD-M or 175gr ELD-X. The the only real difference is if you could find some 160gr TMK’s.






If I were shooting non lead bullets, I would get caliber that DRT Technology makes.

I don’t know, the guide at the end of the bar right now insists elk just soak up .300 win mags and .338s. Damn near invincible to hear tell of it.

 

[MEdude]

At the bar, huh?
Question, what or how much has the guide been soaking up?

 

[Bluumoon]

At the bar, huh?
Question, what or how much has the guide been soaking up?

Well lubricated.

 

[MEdude]

I’ll expect him to start posting sage advise here as soon as he gets home.

 

[35WhelenAI]

philcox, you asked: "Also, for those of us who are in California, and have to shoot mono, same question: Slower but Heavier, or Faster but Lighter? For the 7PRC is there a weight that you would not go under because if you have a 100y shot, you're only putting pencil holes in the animal."

Explain the "weight you would not go under... because at 100 yds "you're only putting pencil holes through animals"? From experience???

Sure not my experience with monos, just wondering the basis for such a certain statement.

 

[ddowning]

I don’t know, the guide at the end of the bar right now insists elk just soak up .300 win mags and .338s. Damn near invincible to hear tell of it.

Can't tell if this is tongue in cheek, but normally, soaking up bullets is a shot placement/bullet construction problem not a cartridge/bullet size problem.

 

[philcox]

philcox, you asked: "Also, for those of us who are in California, and have to shoot mono, same question: Slower but Heavier, or Faster but Lighter? For the 7PRC is there a weight that you would not go under because if you have a 100y shot, you're only putting pencil holes in the animal."

Explain the "weight you would not go under... because at 100 yds "you're only putting pencil holes through animals"? From experience???

Sure not my experience with monos, just wondering the basis for such a certain statement.

Good catch. I think, that what I was thinking about was just the opposite. I was thinking of fragmenting bullets and folks (no experience) pushing those super fast at close distances that they almost disintegrate. Now that you pointed it out. The mono should actually perform better at the speed (than it would at lower speeds). Thanks for the correction.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Gotcha, thanks for the post!

Are you hunting California primarily and what species are you after?

 

[philcox]

Gotcha, thanks for the post!

Are you hunting California primarily and what species are you after?

Sadly, yes. Essentially Deer and Black Bear. Some Elk in other states, but a lot of that is Archery. My problem is I am a "tinkerer" and current setup(s) are:

• 300WM 175 LRX @ 3100fps
• 7PRC 168 LRX @ 2974 pfs
• 6.5CM 124 Hammer Hunter @2940 fps

I just bought a 223 for practicing, since I can shoot that for about .80/round vice the ~$2/round of the others (6.5 is actually ~1.80/round). After the NRL Hunter match I shot the other weekend, the "need to practice different shooting positions" was made very evident. First one I have done. I don't compete, but it was a good learning time.

 

[wyosam]

Sadly, yes. Essentially Deer and Black Bear. Some Elk in other states, but a lot of that is Archery. My problem is I am a "tinkerer" and current setup(s) are:

• 300WM 175 LRX @ 3100fps
• 7PRC 168 LRX @ 2974 pfs
• 6.5CM 124 Hammer Hunter @2940 fps

I just bought a 223 for practicing, since I can shoot that for about .80/round vice the ~$2/round of the others (6.5 is actually ~1.80/round). After the NRL Hunter match I shot the other weekend, the "need to practice different shooting positions" was made very evident. First one I have done. I don't compete, but it was a good learning time.

Any one of those looks like good medicine for deer/bear/elk. I’m partial to Hammers, but killed plenty of elk with the LRX before I made the switch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[35WhelenAI]

Your answers are giving me the same conclusion as above. I prefer weight retention for penetration at all angles on elk (hunt them every year in Co), thus Barnes are my pick for the past 30 years. I've taken advantage of that penetration on a few occasions and haven't been disappointed. For you pick a mono, wouldn't worry about the bullet weight other than go light on those size animals for your longest distance and be done with it.