Why do I suck at long range?

[hereinaz]

When shooting vitals-sized targets, this statement describes 95% of people (myself included, with a full custom rifle)

Having said that, first establish good shooting. ModernDayRifleman videos are the best Ive seen and used

After perfecting, you may find gear upgrades are in order (or not). All gear has diminishing returns.

Having a spotter to help you understand misses is important. Nothing worse than wasting ammo and learning nothing

Agree, gear makes it easier for sure, but provides diminishing returns. It will help hide errors or make up for less developed skills.

If that is happening to me, and it does even with the best gear, I go back to fundamentals. I usually find something I am missing in the way I am behind the rifle and controlling the immediate recoil impulse—not the complete spotting shots impulse. I watch myself miss all the time and cause the miss with poor recoil management.

If you don’t have the skills to actually execute the shot, no amount of gear will help at distance because the shooter exceeds the margin of error.

Having a spotter helps, yes, but misses off the left edge because of poor body position or trigger press will get called as a missed wind. I did that too…

It’s better to have someone watch your body position. Or, record yourself and watch it back. Upload the video to have people really give you feedback.

The bottom line, and hardest to swallow because of ego, is that the shooter is most often the reason we suck and fall apart past 500.

I know, because I can still fall apart at distance if I am not constantly practicing. I am at best a long range student. I know A LOT of the classroom stuff. But, it is my practice that really determines whether I hit targets at long range.

Here, misses were not likely due to ammo variability if the misses were as described.

And, while a new bipod can help hide/make control easier, he said he is steady on the shot, so it is happening after he presses the trigger.

 

[hereinaz]

Do you have a checklist for yours? Curious.

I start with orienting the rifle to the target, setting elevation, and building my selected position. Then, when I address the gun it’s, hips, shoulder, support hand, firing hand, jaw, eyeball, target, parallax, magnification, NPA, wobble zone, (if my wobble zone is too big I find some way to improve my position), trigger finger, breathe, and press.

That’s how I check for errors in my position that will influence the rifle in the nanoseconds before the bullet leaves the barrel. Movement the buttstock has a huge effect.

If one MOA is an inch at 100 yards, and the reticle in the scope is the pivot point, then the buttstock is about half a yard from the reticle driving the rifle.

So think about how small the what fraction of an MOA at the buttstock moves the point of impact one MOA. That is what “the fundamentals of marksmanship” are controlling.

A rifleman in the sense that Form talks about can take any rifle and control it.

The rifle isn’t dropping a whole inch in the instant the bullet fires, the angle of the rifle is moving if I miss by one MOA. It doesn’t take much.

So, everything in my shot process is to set up a repeatable recoil impulse for the bullet. After checking NPA and approving my wobble zone, my process then switches to pressing the trigger without disturbing the rifle.

 

[hereinaz]

And, I would not say you suck at long range, you are clearly putting bullets on target, but it’s the finer points that eluded me too.

Seems like it’s the finer points that you are missing based on the information you provided and the question you asked. Seriously, good on you.

 

[TaperPin]

Trying to keep this short…

Rifle: Tikka roughtech, 6.5cm, harvester suppressor, Hornady 143 precision hunter, adjustable cheek riser, Caldwell bipod, SWFA 10x, warne rings and basses torqued, SWFA bubble level. Has always been a sub MOA for 5+ round groups at 100 yards since I bought it a few years ago

Very proficient at hitting targets and game at say 500 ish yards. 600 pretty solid. But for some reason you start getting me closer to 700+ yards and misses start showing up.

Not always wind misses either, misses that I can’t explain. For example today at 670 yards (shooting across a deep canyon), 80% humidity (light rain) next to zero wind, target was approx 12”x20”.

Missed first shot (didn’t see where). Contact on next two shots, then missed high and right, contact again and then miss high and right, then contact again. All shots were within about 5 minutes so conditions were all very similar. To me these high and right misses were big misses, they likely missed the plate by say 6-8”. Shots broke well today, I was steady on target.

I recently stepped away from a BDC scope to this SWFA thinking dialing would help and it has some but 700 is still not hitting all the time.

I’d really like to understand why I struggle once I start getting out to 700+ yards so that I can make corrections and become a better shot. It’s got to be something that doesn’t really matter at say 100-500 yards but at 700 yards it makes a large difference


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I would chalk this up to marksmanship if you hadn’t said canyon and shots going both high and right.

We get used to reading wind based on what we see and feel at ground level, but a cross canyon shot can be 20’-100’ off the ground or more for much of the bullet travel. Next time you watch a smoky campfire or see a video of a small lightning fire in calm winds, watch the smoke - often at ground level the smoke goes straight up a little then catches more of a breeze and heads to the side.

Where the firefighter is standing smoke is lazily spreading out to both sides about 20’ above him showing almost no breeze at the ground, then above tree level it all moves to the right, and there aren’t many trees in this canyon. It’s safe to say above tree level winds are always doing something.

 

[TimberHunter]

I would chalk this up to marksmanship if you hadn’t said canyon and shots going both high and right.

We get used to reading wind based on what we see and feel at ground level, but a cross canyon shot can be 20’-100’ off the ground or more for much of the bullet travel. Next time you watch a smoky campfire or see a video of a small lightning fire in calm winds, watch the smoke - often at ground level the smoke goes straight up a little then catches more of a breeze and heads to the side.

Where the firefighter is standing smoke is lazily spreading out to both sides about 20’ above him showing almost no breeze at the ground, then above tree level it all moves to the right, and there aren’t many trees in this canyon. It’s safe to say above tree level winds are always doing something.
View attachment 664674

Good point. Often times my shots are over canyons that are easily 300-500’ so being unable to read the wind above the canyon could be a cause. I also think the butt of the rifle dropping is hurting me on my high misses so I’ve purchased the hunters mini wedge to see if that will help support the rear on long shots


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[Wyo_hntr]

Have you watched all of "thlr.no" educational youtube videos? It's a great resource

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVQyfTUUezJjzlmr1l2JirjDI-aPY3_sf&feature=shared

 

[Beetroot]

Without knowing the accuracy of your rifle/ammo at those longer distances you can't rule out that the ultimate accuracy is holding you back.

But if you are getting erratic misses that you don't see at closer distances and you are always shooting across a deep canyon, I'd say wind is the big issue.

Once you get to further distances, strong wind start to effect your elevation.
It's often very difficult to judge wind in the middle of canyon/hilly terrain.

Once you get away from a flat range you need to start looking at the way wind travels through the contours and sometimes ignore what you see at the target.

If you find your misses are occurring in gusty conditions I'd almost guarantee it's the wind/terrain giving you headaches.

 

[yycyak]

I'm late to the party, but:

my bro, you're shooting 700m across a canyon.

That's freaking hard. I'd say you're doing well, considering the circumstances.

Wind calls are tough. Wind calls in mountains... hope you like head games.

Trying to keep this short…

Rifle: Tikka roughtech, 6.5cm, harvester suppressor, Hornady 143 precision hunter, adjustable cheek riser, Caldwell bipod, SWFA 10x, warne rings and basses torqued, SWFA bubble level. Has always been a sub MOA for 5+ round groups at 100 yards since I bought it a few years ago

Very proficient at hitting targets and game at say 500 ish yards. 600 pretty solid. But for some reason you start getting me closer to 700+ yards and misses start showing up.

Not always wind misses either, misses that I can’t explain. For example today at 670 yards (shooting across a deep canyon), 80% humidity (light rain) next to zero wind, target was approx 12”x20”.

Missed first shot (didn’t see where). Contact on next two shots, then missed high and right, contact again and then miss high and right, then contact again. All shots were within about 5 minutes so conditions were all very similar. To me these high and right misses were big misses, they likely missed the plate by say 6-8”. Shots broke well today, I was steady on target.

I recently stepped away from a BDC scope to this SWFA thinking dialing would help and it has some but 700 is still not hitting all the time.

I’d really like to understand why I struggle once I start getting out to 700+ yards so that I can make corrections and become a better shot. It’s got to be something that doesn’t really matter at say 100-500 yards but at 700 yards it makes a large difference


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[Sako300]

Anti cant bubble on scope?

 

[Sako300]

Anti cant bubble on scope?

Wait never mind

 

[Sako300]

Wait never mind

Once you get past 700 yards, look at the difference from 5 mph crosswinds to 3 mph winds. Just being only 2 mph off on your wind calls call be detrimental

 

[ElkTycoon]

I'm late to the party, but:

my bro, you're shooting 700m across a canyon.

That's freaking hard. I'd say you're doing well, considering the circumstances.

Wind calls are tough. Wind calls in mountains... hope you like head games.

This ^^^^

Shape of the terrain in the canyon makes a huge difference too. Luckily in hunting scenarios if you have a lot of ups/downs/ridges between a critter, you can use that terrain to get closer.

But, from shooting targets/rocks/steel, you’re just shooting over whatever exists. I own some property in south/central Colorado that backs up to 100k acres of BLM. It’s amazing for shooting long range. Lots of rocky ledges and rock outcropping that make great targets to shoot at. I have a steel gong hung up in a spot that I can shoot at it from several vantage points. When I’m 800-1200 yards away, there are several ridges underneath the bullet path. The wind is wild with several upslopes and the wind direction is all over the place too. I can’t hit s#!t when the wind picks up much over 5mph. And in the afternoon when the wind is stiff, one shot will be 4 feet high right, and the next shot will be 3 feet low left. Not the gun. Not shooting form. Just unpredictable wind. It’s very humbling.

 

[xsn10s]

Trying to keep this short…

Rifle: Tikka roughtech, 6.5cm, harvester suppressor, Hornady 143 precision hunter, adjustable cheek riser, Caldwell bipod, SWFA 10x, warne rings and basses torqued, SWFA bubble level. Has always been a sub MOA for 5+ round groups at 100 yards since I bought it a few years ago

Very proficient at hitting targets and game at say 500 ish yards. 600 pretty solid. But for some reason you start getting me closer to 700+ yards and misses start showing up.

Not always wind misses either, misses that I can’t explain. For example today at 670 yards (shooting across a deep canyon), 80% humidity (light rain) next to zero wind, target was approx 12”x20”.

Missed first shot (didn’t see where). Contact on next two shots, then missed high and right, contact again and then miss high and right, then contact again. All shots were within about 5 minutes so conditions were all very similar. To me these high and right misses were big misses, they likely missed the plate by say 6-8”. Shots broke well today, I was steady on target.

I recently stepped away from a BDC scope to this SWFA thinking dialing would help and it has some but 700 is still not hitting all the time.

I’d really like to understand why I struggle once I start getting out to 700+ yards so that I can make corrections and become a better shot. It’s got to be something that doesn’t really matter at say 100-500 yards but at 700 yards it makes a large difference


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Canyon shots can be tough but I'd also have another shooter try your rifle. We're assuming that the rifle is capable of stabilizing bullets beyond 600-700 yards. If you have a friend that's a capable LR shooter then have them shoot your rifle. That way you'll have some sort of a baseline on your rifle's capabilities. Beyond that like others have said a bubble level would be good to have. And maybe researching how to correct for your scope parallax.

 

[2-Stix]

I was at the range yesterday and it runs to a 1000+ yards once you start to climb the hill...the flags are at 300, 400, 500, 600. I was thinking about this thread...the flags are leaning certain ways yes...but regardless you can see the direction of the wind. I think this supports the crosswinds we can encounter. This is in a canyon that is about 700 yards and 150 yards wide.

 

[TimberHunter]

I was at the range yesterday and it runs to a 1000+ yards once you start to climb the hill...the flags are at 300, 400, 500, 600. I was thinking about this thread...the flags are leaning certain ways yes...but regardless you can see the direction of the wind. I think this supports the crosswinds we can encounter. This is in a canyon that is about 700 yards and 150 yards wide.

I appreciate this. It’s a great visual to help me understand that just because the app says hold half mill with the wind at the rifle doesn’t mean it’s a half mill the whole bullet flight path


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[Caseknife]

One other thing to think about, what are the thermals doing on the opposite hillside. Easy way to really confuse yourself is to watch the snow fall across a canyon, goes many different directions from the breeze at your location.

 

[TimberHunter]

One other thing to think about, what are the thermals doing on the opposite hillside. Easy way to really confuse yourself is to watch the snow fall across a canyon, goes many different directions from the breeze at your location.

So I’m getting a little lost… what’s the answer? Get the highest BC bullet at the faster FPS you can and minimize wind holds? If you can’t really use the wind direction at the gun as your indicator to put into your ballistic app, how does one hold for wind?

The question is more directed at hunting because when practicing you can have flags that show the wind at the target and on the way to the target


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[Formidilosus]

So I’m getting a little lost… what’s the answer? Get the highest BC bullet at the faster FPS you can and minimize wind holds? If you can’t really use the wind direction at the gun as your indicator to put into your ballistic app, how does one hold for wind?

The question is more directed at hunting because when practicing you can have flags that show the wind at the target and on the way to the target


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High BC and very shootable rifles and chamberings help, but you must shoot in the mountains in novel environments constantly to learn how to read wind and the terrain. Past 450’ish yards there is no short cut and no price if equipment that will change that.

 

[Tmac]

So I’m getting a little lost… what’s the answer? Get the highest BC bullet at the faster FPS you can and minimize wind holds? If you can’t really use the wind direction at the gun as your indicator to put into your ballistic app, how does one hold for wind?

The question is more directed at hunting because when practicing you can have flags that show the wind at the target and on the way to the target


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In windy conditions, unless zero value or close to it, I either stalk closer or pass. I’ve been in winds that make 200 yards look like a mile lol. That’s how I answer it for me anyway.

If I wanted to shoot game much past 400, a long range shooting class and a couple thousand rounds of field practice would likely be in order. I practice to 600 and varmint hunt. Only once have shot at a big game animal over 400, longest varmint shot was a prairie dog at 450 with my hunting rifle, both one shot kills. So I’m not the best resource for the long stuff.

 

[TimberHunter]

High BC and very shootable rifles and chamberings help, but you must shoot in the mountains in novel environments constantly to learn how to read wind and the terrain. Past 450’ish yards there is no short cut and no price if equipment that will change that.

One follow up question: I’m 100% onboard with more shootable rifles (I’m considering stepping down from a 6.5cm to a 6cm) but how does a more shootable rifle aid in reducing wind or making better wind calls?


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