Why cardio ain't enough for the backcountry

[Poser]

The beginning of the "cardio zone", which you failed to define, is pretty universally accepted to be 50-60% of one's max heart rate. So let's take '220 - age' for the rough max HR of say a 30 year old...that's about 190 for a max HR...now 50% of 190 is 95...are you saying that ruck training at a HR of 95 is not beneficial nor sustainable? I've taken my HR on multiple heavy pack in/out...its between 90-130 all day...right smack in the middle of ths cadio zone...yet you say maintaining the cardio zone in the mountains is impractical? How so?

Zones are not universal and can vary quite a bit from one individual to the next and A person with significant muscular endurance base can outperform a person with a significant cardio base in a race. For this reason, having a genetic definition of zones is not so practical beyond pointing out that there is a clear delineation between the 2.

 

[Poser]

Most of the country does not live in or near the mountains. The most efficient tool to prepare yourself for altitude is to improve your VO2 max, which is best done by a combination of running, cycling and other endurance training.



Not saying it doesn't work for you, but if there were a guy I liked and a guy I didn't like both going on backcountry hunts, this would be the training plan I'd give to the latter.

I’d give them a copy of both Starting Strength and Uphill Athlete: get strong and build your sport specific muscular endurance.

For rucking in the mountains, I’d choose using the rower or possibly KB swings for increasing V02 max vs running or cycling. But, let’s face it: omly a small portion of folks are effectively training in a way to deliberately and systematically increase their V02 max for the purposes of hunting.

 

[Vandy321]

Zones are not universal and can vary quite a bit from one individual to the next and A person with significant muscular endurance base can outperform a person with a significant cardio base in a race. For this reason, having a genetic definition of zones is not so practical beyond pointing out that there is a clear delineation between the 2.

Where can I get some of that crossfit kool-aid?

 

[OXN939]

I’d give them a copy of both Starting Strength and Uphill Athlete: get strong and build your sport specific muscular endurance.

Would love to read those if you have an extra copy! Agreed on the rower- think that's the most underutilized piece of gym equipment out there.

 

[Poser]

Where can I get some of that crossfit kool-aid?

Couldn’t tell you. I haven’t bounced a deadlift off the floor in years.

 

[Vandy321]

Couldn’t tell you. I haven’t bounced a deadlift off the floor in years.

Lifting weights over and over again, say any type of metcon/muscular endurance training is still cardio and in 99.99% of folks "cardio zone" as far as HR is concerned.

Call it when you want, repetitive KB swings are no different than a heavy/steep climb on a bike.

I do it all lift, run, ruck, swim, bike, don't get me wrong it all has it's benefits, but the anti-cardio crowd is often the ones I see fail in the woods.

I'd take a hunting partner who only rucks/runs over one who only squats/DLs 10 out of 10 times

 

[OXN939]

I'd take a hunting partner who only rucks/runs over one who only squats/DLs 10 out of 10 times

Yep. Can't say I've ever heard of someone failing to punch a tag because their clean and jerk wasn't heavy enough. Definitely seen some guys struggle because they couldn't keep up and/ or had trouble adjusting to altitude.

Like many things in life, a healthy blend does the trick nicely.

 

[as.ks.ak]

Good read!!

1- mental toughness is paramount above all else.
2- cardio/stamina——more for the recovery aspect on day 8,9,10.
3- flexibility/stabilizer muscle fitness.
4- strength.

In that order!!!! At least IMHO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mtwarden]

In regards to hunting in the mountains , clearly there are folks that focus too much time "running" (aerobic endeavors) and neglecting time strength training and just as many (maybe more????) that spend too much time lifting and not enough time "running".

Moving through the mountains efficiently and all day long (for multiple days) is best achieved by moving through the mountains- a lot. Obviously not everyone has that luxury year round. In that case you need to develop a plan that best mimics moving through the mountains. That's probably going to look like a lot of time hiking/rucking (finding hills and uneven ground where you can) AND some well thought out and focused strength training.

 

[LostArra]

In regards to hunting in the mountains , clearly there are folks that focus too much time "running" (aerobic endeavors) and neglecting time strength training and just as many (maybe more????) that spend too much time lifting and not enough time "running".

Moving through the mountains efficiently and all day long (for multiple days) is best achieved by moving through the mountains- a lot. Obviously not everyone has that luxury year round. In that case you need to develop a plan that best mimics moving through the mountains. That's probably going to look like a lot of time hiking/rucking (finding hills and uneven ground where you can) AND some well thought out and focused strength training.

Bingo!

 

[Poser]

Lifting weights over and over again, say any type of metcon/muscular endurance training is still cardio and in 99.99% of folks "cardio zone" as far as HR is concerned.

Call it when you want, repetitive KB swings are no different than a heavy/steep climb on a bike.

I do it all lift, run, ruck, swim, bike, don't get me wrong it all has it's benefits, but the anti-cardio crowd is often the ones I see fail in the woods.

I'd take a hunting partner who only rucks/runs over one who only squats/DLs 10 out of 10 times

One reason that I am not a fan of the use of the term “cardio” is because it is so non Specific. In the sense that you use the cardiovascular system to literally do anything, be it taking a dump, deadlifting or shoveling snow, everything is literally “cardio.”

The term “conditioning” is much more accurate because sport specific conditioning is in fact a specific adaptation. What people seem to confuse is that any and all cardio is general and this is not the case. Again, triathletes have to train all 3 sports. Why is that? Because running does not effectively condition the body for the adaptations of riding a bike.

Sense rucking is under the added stress of weight and mountain sports involve a considerable amount of time going uphill, it is a different adaptation than general running. Muscular endurance for the purposes of rucking is a specific adaptation where the capillary density of the muscles are able to continuously perform a sub maximal movement Over and over again. Strength plays a considerable role in this as the stronger the muscles, the less stressful the task, however, that capillary density adaptation is a separate (or additional) adaptation from pure strength and is specific to the sport.

Strength itself, however, is a general adaptation. Strong quads are strong quads, but there are sport specific adaptations that need to be made to perform specific sports: a cyclist may be concerned with lactic threshold as it relates to their quads, for example. As a person who puts on a backpack and hikes uphill for hours at a time, muscular endurance is where it’s at. Does it rely on the cardiovascular system? Absolutely. But, your muscles are the primary pathway to performance in this case.

Not a high quality, fancy influencers video, but it’s as simple and stupid as this video demonstrates. The semantics of this is largely where people get confused because it’s seems to be the case that few people actually understand the difference between “cardio”, which is a very non specific term, “conditioning”, which is more specific and “muscular endurance.” As it stands, people seem to lump these term all generically under the umbrella of “cardio” and express the idea that all “cardio” is therefore productive as it relates to “cardio” and that is simply false.

In the end, I will stand by this advice as the end all be all for rucking performance: get strong (general adaptation most effectively achieved by doing the basic barbell movements with heavy loads and low reps) and build your sport specific muscular endurance. If you lack the necessary strength to perform the necessary force production over and over again, you’ll have to build that along the way while conditioning and that is a very slow and arduous process. That portion of this simple equation is best achieved in the gym.

 

[arock]

Hmmm. Fitness is kind of like nutrition where you have zealots pretty much everywhere. I think that doing a bit of everything, some running (or biking or swimming at a steady pace) - some rucking over terrain - some strength training (weights, xfit, yoga, calisthenics, whatever) and you're probably going to be fine.

Traversing difficult terrain over 10,000 feet in elevation is going to suck and suck even more with weight no matter what you do unless you live at elevation. It's more mental than anything.

 

[BenchToField]

I really liked this article. I ordered a copy off eBay. After googling like crazy, I can't seem to find where to purchase a subscription. Is this magazine new stand purchase only? Does it come quarterly with a subscription to Petersen's Hunting Magazine?

 

[Mule3006Elk]

Sharing my personal strategy: I do some running and lots of cycling. I love hill training on the bike which translates to boots on the ground. I don't mind climbing mountains. Even when I'm hunting, climbing up mountains, mentally I see it as a training session. I just don't mind training.

Mentally I feel pretty strong + lots of passion for the mountains and hunting.

I don't lift on a consistent basis.

I have never felt undertrained hunting mule deer and/or elk in ID. I'm not hunting the flats.

I think mental strength is HUGE when deer/elk hunting in the mountains or any backcountry boots on ground hunt. I don't think you can train your brain for that. You either have a love/passion for it, middle ground, or not so much. I think that's a deciding factor for a lot of folks. They want a classic Western hunt but mentally they're not committed for whatever reason. FWIW

 

[P Carter]

One reason that I am not a fan of the use of the term “cardio” is because it is so non Specific. In the sense that you use the cardiovascular system to literally do anything, be it taking a dump, deadlifting or shoveling snow, everything is literally “cardio.”

The term “conditioning” is much more accurate because sport specific conditioning is in fact a specific adaptation. What people seem to confuse is that any and all cardio is general and this is not the case. Again, triathletes have to train all 3 sports. Why is that? Because running does not effectively condition the body for the adaptations of riding a bike.

Sense rucking is under the added stress of weight and mountain sports involve a considerable amount of time going uphill, it is a different adaptation than general running. Muscular endurance for the purposes of rucking is a specific adaptation where the capillary density of the muscles are able to continuously perform a sub maximal movement Over and over again. Strength plays a considerable role in this as the stronger the muscles, the less stressful the task, however, that capillary density adaptation is a separate (or additional) adaptation from pure strength and is specific to the sport.

Strength itself, however, is a general adaptation. Strong quads are strong quads, but there are sport specific adaptations that need to be made to perform specific sports: a cyclist may be concerned with lactic threshold as it relates to their quads, for example. As a person who puts on a backpack and hikes uphill for hours at a time, muscular endurance is where it’s at. Does it rely on the cardiovascular system? Absolutely. But, your muscles are the primary pathway to performance in this case.

Not a high quality, fancy influencers video, but it’s as simple and stupid as this video demonstrates. The semantics of this is largely where people get confused because it’s seems to be the case that few people actually understand the difference between “cardio”, which is a very non specific term, “conditioning”, which is more specific and “muscular endurance.” As it stands, people seem to lump these term all generically under the umbrella of “cardio” and express the idea that all “cardio” is therefore productive as it relates to “cardio” and that is simply false.

In the end, I will stand by this advice as the end all be all for rucking performance: get strong (general adaptation most effectively achieved by doing the basic barbell movements with heavy loads and low reps) and build your sport specific muscular endurance. If you lack the necessary strength to perform the necessary force production over and over again, you’ll have to build that along the way while conditioning and that is a very slow and arduous process. That portion of this simple equation is best achieved in the gym.

Not going to fully jump in here. I will just say that the makers of this video stress that aerobic conditioning is the foundation of mountain fitness. Their plans lay out many months of aerobic work, combined with some lifting, to create a sufficiently large aerobic base. Then, and only then, do they suggest moving to muscular endurance work. And if you don’t have time for both aerobic base and ME work, they say do the aerobic base work. I don’t think there is really all that much that folks here are disagreeing on. Just pointing out that the makers of the video you cited would (and do) recommend a high-volume base of aerobic work, coupled with strength training, with muscular endurance work to peak for the goal event, which doesn’t appear to be wholly consistent with your training recommendations. These guys say avoid biking but point to running as a good way to build aerobic base; their training seems to assume people will run or hike to build the aerobic base.

 

[P Carter]

Had to check myself to make sure I wasn't misremembering. This was addressed at length in Training for the New Alpinism, but here is a blurb from an online article as well. ME is "muscular endurance." Again, not trying to argue, mostly double-checking to make sure I read things right!

ME Caveat​

This stuff really works—and it works fast. Keep in mind that the higher your basic aerobic capacity, your Aerobic Threshold (AeT), the bigger the gains will be from this training. This is why we continue to beat the aerobic capacity drum so hard and so often. The excitement of seeing rapid gains when using these ME workouts often leads many folks to overemphasize them in their training program by replacing time spent training easier aerobic paces (Recovery and Zones 1 and 2) with these “money” workouts.

DO NOT make this mistake. You MUST maintain your lower-intensity aerobic volume and add this training on top of that. If you don’t, the gains you see will be quick (10–20 percent in only a few workouts) followed at first by a plateau and later a decline in performance.

We cover this in depth in our book Training for the New Alpinism and articles on training (Aerobic Base Archives and “Death by Threshold”).

Bearing in mind the above warning: After you have gone though an extensive (how extensive? See note below) aerobic base-building period and elevated your Aerobic Threshold to it highest level for the current training cycle, you are ready to start adding some ME training to your program.

Note​

We like to see our athletes have their AeT be within 10 percent of their AnT as measured by heart rate before they begin this program. If you are aerobically deficient, then you still have big gains to make by focusing on your aerobic system, which will make this training more effective. See our article on aerobic and anaerobic self-assessment for more.

link: https://uphillathlete.com/vertical-...inist-or-mountaineer-and-how-do-you-train-it/

 

[mtwarden]

^ uphill athlete has some really good literature, a lot of it available free on their site.

Their two books also very good reads (albeit not easy reads as they delve in pretty deep and technical).

 

[Poser]

Had to check myself to make sure I wasn't misremembering. This was addressed at length in Training for the New Alpinism, but here is a blurb from an online article as well. ME is "muscular endurance." Again, not trying to argue, mostly double-checking to make sure I read things right!

ME Caveat​

This stuff really works—and it works fast. Keep in mind that the higher your basic aerobic capacity, your Aerobic Threshold (AeT), the bigger the gains will be from this training. This is why we continue to beat the aerobic capacity drum so hard and so often. The excitement of seeing rapid gains when using these ME workouts often leads many folks to overemphasize them in their training program by replacing time spent training easier aerobic paces (Recovery and Zones 1 and 2) with these “money” workouts.

DO NOT make this mistake. You MUST maintain your lower-intensity aerobic volume and add this training on top of that. If you don’t, the gains you see will be quick (10–20 percent in only a few workouts) followed at first by a plateau and later a decline in performance.

We cover this in depth in our book Training for the New Alpinism and articles on training (Aerobic Base Archives and “Death by Threshold”).

Bearing in mind the above warning: After you have gone though an extensive (how extensive? See note below) aerobic base-building period and elevated your Aerobic Threshold to it highest level for the current training cycle, you are ready to start adding some ME training to your program.



link: https://uphillathlete.com/vertical-...inist-or-mountaineer-and-how-do-you-train-it/

The caveat here as it applies to hunting is the fact that hunting is so inherently heavy, far heavier than any of the applications presented in the book. With this in mind, I’ll content that ME + strength become even a more Significant factor than detailed for SkiMo, mountain racers, fast packers etc that they target with this particular training. Hunting/rucking is heavier and slower. I do feel the pinch a bit when I transition in the late fall/early winter from hunting to skinning. Being relieved of the weight of a heavy tends to want to allow the body to go faster and I am not fully adapted for that. One of my hunting partners who does ultra mountain races in the summer, is slower under heavy weight when hunting, but annoyingly faster than me when skinning.

One might also note how much of the aerobic volume recommends by UA is at a very slow pace, likely slower than most people are training. It’s a metric ton of slow work.

 

[mtwarden]

One might also note how much of the aerobic volume recommends by UA is at a very slow pace, likely slower than most people are training. It’s a metric ton of slow work.

this little tidbit slips by most folks- faster and harder has to better for you right?

re: weight- I don't think most mountaineering folks are apt to be lugging a 100 lb load off a mountain like a successful backcountry hunter, but they tote pretty heavy packs routinely

 

[P Carter]

^Agree with both. You don’t really realize how slow until you strap on a heart monitor for a season. But it does pay off, pace increases at the same heart rate after a few months of consistent work. Also, when I say “running,” as Poser noted, that entails a lot of walking when the going gets steep.