When is a buck acceptable to shoot to preserve the deer herd? Should everybody be a trophy hunter? (Montana Rut thread carryover)

-WARDOG-

FNG
Joined
Jan 16, 2023
Messages
17
Location
Elk City, Idaho
I live in the mountains of northern Idaho and see many whitetails all day, every day.
8-pointers are a dime a dozen during the rut.
This is the first year I have passed on all bucks in northern Idaho. I hunted hard like I do every year for elk then white tail. In my area a tag allows for harvest of either sex.
I have taken a lot of deer, and to make it more of a challenge I handgun hunt as much as possible. Or I should say that I carry a specific revolver and will use it to take a healthy buck within my range of 80 yards. But I'm no dummy. I carry a rifle as well, just in case I see a trophy elk or buck, or cougar, or wolf that is beyond my 80 yard revolver range and I really don't want to pass it up.
This is why I passed on all white tail bucks last season:
I get a gauge of the deer herd health just by paying attention to populations, observing the physical appearance of the deer I see, reports from Fish & Game, and what some other specific hunters with a solid reputation have seen.
In 2017, and again in 2021 our area had a high mortality of white tail (WT) and Mulie's (Mu's) due to hemorrhagic disease (Blue Tongue). On top of all of that our cougar population, and wolf population also grew.
Many of the does and quality bucks that I had been watching year after year on my property never returned. No doubt that mother nature is a cruel bitch and being on the menu of multiple predators can't be easy.
Now, since I live here, I know all of this history and current state of the deer population. Most non-resident hunters don't know what I know. This is where some of the problems come from. In my area, the state has mismanaged non-resident tags for years. NR hunters pay a pretty good price for the chance to hunt WT's and Mu's. They pay not only for the tags, but also the travel expenses, lodging etc. So the NR hunters I see in my area may pass on a few 3x3's, but when they get within a week of closing season they don't want to go home empty handed and have nothing to show there wives for all of the expenses of the trip. They also want to make sure they still have time to get their meat butchered up before they head for home. So they blast any fat doe or mediocre buck just to make meat. The state can fix some of this by requiring NR hunters to hunt bucks only, and to make the bucks a certain size.
I was holding out waiting to see if a couple of the bucks from the previous year were going to return within handgun range. I saw a few of them at night, laying under my apple tree 15 yards from my front porch, but they didn't show themselves during the light of day.
I just didn't feel that the population had bounced back enough to justify putting a mediocre buck in the freezer when I still had elk left.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2015
Messages
5,610
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Lenexa, KS
It makes zero sense to poo poo someone else's animal for so many reasons I couldn't list them all.

I think sometimes we can look at each other as the enemy, competition, but I have met so many great people in the field. Like 10 to 1 ratio of great people to not great. I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
 

jjjjeremy

Lil-Rokslider
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Jul 21, 2017
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213
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CA
Everyone forgets that does carry half the genetics, and that genetics don't change with age. There is no evidence to support the notion that shooting spikes or passing on "growers" has any effect on antler size. Or the inverse, that shooting younger bucks reduces the herd or antler size. Shoot whatever legal animal you want.
 

jjjjeremy

Lil-Rokslider
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Jul 21, 2017
Messages
213
Location
CA
I was taught that one would want to leave the biggest bulls/bucks to spread their genes and focus on smaller animals. Sure, it'd be hard for any hunter to let a record buck/bull walk away, but I still believe that would be the best for the herd/population in the long run.

Maybe I'm biased, this thinking is mostly for moose, not sure if it applies to elk and deer but I don't see why it wouldn't.
Plus, younger animals have better tasting and tendering meat, imo.
This doesn't make sense to me. Passing on the big older bucks just means you could be shooting a smaller buck with big antler genes. At least when you shoot the bigger older animals you might be increasing fertility in the herd overall.
 

hobbes

WKR
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
2,409
I have no problem with the deer you killed. He's not what I would consider mature regardless of what's available but it's your license and your choice.


The following is my opinion and my stab at first steps for MT to try and balance herd numbers, buck numbers, and hunter numbers. All play a part in hunt quality even if it is a relative term.

I think it’s clear that Montana’s mule deer season and mule deer license structure needs an update. I can’t say that it makes me happy to admit it. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed hunting mule deer during the rut with a rifle. I like the cold weather (when we have it). I like glassing until my eyes hurt over broken country. I like the excitement of spotting a buck in the binoculars and then getting the spotter on it to see if it’s worth a closer look. I like the rush of realizing it’s a shooter, cramming everything in my pack and making a quick plan to get within range of a buck, and wasting no time because he can disappear quickly without a trace on his quest for does. However, I could still do most if not all of that even if I wasn’t hunting the rut. What I consider a shooter buck would likely be more difficult to find but I’ve not found a shooter buck on public land or block management the last two seasons. “Shooter” is a relative term and in general I’ve been looking for 150 plus mature bodied buck, what I considered a solid buck for Montana. However, both of my boys in their early 20s have a couple days to hunt and have shot relatively few deer between whitetails and mule deer and are happy with just about any “respectable” 4 point the same as a lot of folks in Montana. They would be thrilled with a buck similar to the one at the top of this thread.

My suggestion for a place to start is as follows:

Mule Deer general archery season (Sept -Oct) remains the same. Archery season is not what’s slamming the mule deer.

Whitetail stays the same general season.

Youth season is the same dates but whitetail only.

Mule Deer general rifle season starts the same but ends on November 5th. I prefer specific dates over the “first Sunday following the…….”.

Mule Deer season from November 6th to the end of the regular General season is by permit only for any weapon. The permit is not an additional tag but allows you to continue hunting with your general license if not already filled. Permits should be region specific. Permit numbers should give residents at least a 50 to 75% chance of drawing and be a 90/10 split resident/nonresident. The number of permits really should be based on biology but if you cut it back too far immediately you'll never get residents on board.

Nonresident deer licenses need to be cut by 25 to 30 percent whether the licenses comes from a big game combo or deer combo.

Eliminate mule deer doe tags except for in unusual cases where the numbers need to be reduced (urban areas or game damage hunts)

Eliminate nonresident doe tags for mule deer and whitetails.

Heritage Muzzzleloader Season could stay the same for now allowing hunting with the general license. I’ve hunted eastern MT during this season and its not a popular season by any means it’s so damn cold and the traditional muzzleloader along with open sights doesn’t have a ton of interest at this time.

I do not care for point restrictions. I don't think it'll do much for mule deer.

Fire away. :)
 

Hippie Steve

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jul 8, 2022
Messages
202
Location
Montana
Hi @ciervo macho récord_227 , question for you.

Absent regulation changes (FWP does nothing), how do you see the hunter participation and harvest numbers going forward?

View attachment 509750
Hey Dos Perros, in my opinion minus any regulation changes/clean ups, I see hunter participation increasing but, weather dependent, our deer populations are at objective or slightly higher in some districts from some of the reports. FWP doesn't gather hunter survey post hunt information on the level that they should be but there is talk of that changing to help aid opportunities.
 

Hippie Steve

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jul 8, 2022
Messages
202
Location
Montana
The fact that: >...None of the bucks were yearlings, and all were laughed at (by somebody now in time out) and were told we were part of the problem of low deer numbers for shooting “young dinks”

offender is in time out tells you how we feel.

Shoot what you like within the law. If everyone was a big buck hunter, there would be even less big bucks.

If you wanna pass, you might find bigger, but no judgement if you don't want to.

If people want more trophy management, that starts at the lobbying level, not attacking hunters on a forum.
Robby is spot on.
 

CaliWoodsman

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Aug 16, 2016
Messages
257
Location
California
To the OP, one could say that buck is not “mature”, or not at its peak, or genetically inferior due to the 3-point frame (although I’m a sucker for big 3x3s), but I’ve never heard anyone in real life refer to a buck like that as a “dink”. Goodness gracious. The things people will say on the internet that they would never say in real life.

Trying to manage a deer herd by peer pressuring hunters into passing on animals of a certain size is an exercise in futility. You might reach a small fraction of hunters with that message, very few of which will actually change how they hunt. Deer management changes have to come from the managing agencies, whether that’s through point restrictions, tag quotas, season dates, or some others means.

Don’t feel guilty for a second about shooting that buck.
 

Grundy53

WKR
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
649
Location
Washington State
I have no problem with the deer you killed. He's not what I would consider mature regardless of what's available but it's your license and your choice.


The following is my opinion and my stab at first steps for MT to try and balance herd numbers, buck numbers, and hunter numbers. All play a part in hunt quality even if it is a relative term.

I think it’s clear that Montana’s mule deer season and mule deer license structure needs an update. I can’t say that it makes me happy to admit it. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed hunting mule deer during the rut with a rifle. I like the cold weather (when we have it). I like glassing until my eyes hurt over broken country. I like the excitement of spotting a buck in the binoculars and then getting the spotter on it to see if it’s worth a closer look. I like the rush of realizing it’s a shooter, cramming everything in my pack and making a quick plan to get within range of a buck, and wasting no time because he can disappear quickly without a trace on his quest for does. However, I could still do most if not all of that even if I wasn’t hunting the rut. What I consider a shooter buck would likely be more difficult to find but I’ve not found a shooter buck on public land or block management the last two seasons. “Shooter” is a relative term and in general I’ve been looking for 150 plus mature bodied buck, what I considered a solid buck for Montana. However, both of my boys in their early 20s have a couple days to hunt and have shot relatively few deer between whitetails and mule deer and are happy with just about any “respectable” 4 point the same as a lot of folks in Montana. They would be thrilled with a buck similar to the one at the top of this thread.

My suggestion for a place to start is as follows:

Mule Deer general archery season (Sept -Oct) remains the same. Archery season is not what’s slamming the mule deer.

Whitetail stays the same general season.

Youth season is the same dates but whitetail only.

Mule Deer general rifle season starts the same but ends on November 5th. I prefer specific dates over the “first Sunday following the…….”.

Mule Deer season from November 6th to the end of the regular General season is by permit only for any weapon. The permit is not an additional tag but allows you to continue hunting with your general license if not already filled. Permits should be region specific. Permit numbers should give residents at least a 50 to 75% chance of drawing and be a 90/10 split resident/nonresident. The number of permits really should be based on biology but if you cut it back too far immediately you'll never get residents on board.

Nonresident deer licenses need to be cut by 25 to 30 percent whether the licenses comes from a big game combo or deer combo.

Eliminate mule deer doe tags except for in unusual cases where the numbers need to be reduced (urban areas or game damage hunts)

Eliminate nonresident doe tags for mule deer and whitetails.

Heritage Muzzzleloader Season could stay the same for now allowing hunting with the general license. I’ve hunted eastern MT during this season and its not a popular season by any means it’s so damn cold and the traditional muzzleloader along with open sights doesn’t have a ton of interest at this time.

I do not care for point restrictions. I don't think it'll do much for mule deer.

Fire away. :)
I think you have some good thoughts. But your general season is going to be CROWDED. Condensing 6 weeks worth of hunters into 2 weeks. Even reducing tag numbers by a third, it's still going to be packed.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
 

hobbes

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Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
2,409
I think you have some good thoughts. But your general season is going to be CROWDED. Condensing 6 weeks worth of hunters into 2 weeks. Even reducing tag numbers by a third, it's still going to be packed.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
Very good point. I don't think it'll be any more crowded than what November typically is, considering the pile of folks that plan their hunts in November. I know that's when I plan a trip east and I think when the majority of nonresidents plan their trip. The last week would probably have the most folks in the general season but the folks with the permit would likely hold off until mid November (at least I would).

I definitely don't have all the answers but in another line of work I've seen possible solutions nixed time after time in search of the perfect solution. Nothing was done because the perfect solution never presented itself.
 

robby denning

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Feb 25, 2012
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SE Idaho
I think you have some good thoughts. But your general season is going to be CROWDED. Condensing 6 weeks worth of hunters into 2 weeks. Even reducing tag numbers by a third, it's still going to be packed.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
Idaho surveys of the past have shown that hunters only hunt about 5 days average no matter how long the season.

having hunting multiple states with seasons longer than 5 days, I tend to agree with Idaho's results.

So IMO..., it might not be as crowded as we'd guess if the season was shortened (flame me away lol)
 

hobbes

WKR
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Messages
2,409
I know my suggestions to FWP alone may not make any difference, but I'll be sending them in. I've done it before with turkeys and oddly enough the very thing that I requested was approved the following year. I suspect that it was a coincidence. The difference is, most folks in MT don't care about wild turkeys like I do and their was very little comments received about the proposal. My suggestions for deer will be lost in all the other noise without someone else voicing a serious amount of support but it'll definitely go nowhere just bitching here. A change to the deer season will run up against a lot of resistance.
 

ElGuapo

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Sep 30, 2017
Messages
204
Location
Reno, Nv
I have no issue with any hunter shooting whatever buck is legal, and they so choose…. With only 1 exception:

Mule Deer hunters that are “Trophy hunting”, for the first 5 days, of their 6 day hunt, and then shooting a yearling buck on the last day, because they can’t stand the thought of not punching a tag. If you want some number of old bucks, in a population, then some of us, have to show enough restraint to let some walk. Men, with rifles are very effective these days.

I also wish these states would end the seasons before the bucks become completely dumb from the rut (After Nov 10 or so). They’re just too vulnerable.

To me, there’s something magical about “What if” a few giants are still out there roaming, even if they’re very very difficult to kill. Some states don’t really give them a chance.
 

Hippie Steve

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Jul 8, 2022
Messages
202
Location
Montana
I know my suggestions to FWP alone may not make any difference, but I'll be sending them in. I've done it before with turkeys and oddly enough the very thing that I requested was approved the following year. I suspect that it was a coincidence. The difference is, most folks in MT don't care about wild turkeys like I do and their was very little comments received about the proposal. My suggestions for deer will be lost in all the other noise without someone else voicing a serious amount of support but it'll definitely go nowhere just bitching here. A change to the deer season will run up against a lot of resistance.
Hey hobbes, thank you for commenting and engaging FWP. They do take everyone's input seriously and decisions are based a lot on hunter input. It only takes reaching one person. Again, thank you.
 

sndmn11

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Mar 28, 2017
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Morrison, Colorado
My thoughts are that if someone wants to shoot those bucks, have at it.

I had a "trophy" mule deer license this year and stuck a small buck the first day because I thought it would be fun. It was.

I think if someone desires big bucks to be more prevalent they need to cheer on the folks who shoot the small ones so the big ones live to be bigger.

I think if one is seeing less bucks in general, this seeing less big bucks, the problem lies in mismanagement of buck:doe ratios. They need to shoot more does and much less bucks.
 

hobbes

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Messages
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My thoughts are that if someone wants to shoot those bucks, have at it.

I had a "trophy" mule deer license this year and stuck a small buck the first day because I thought it would be fun. It was.

I think if someone desires big bucks to be more prevalent they need to cheer on the folks who shoot the small ones so the big ones live to be bigger.

I think if one is seeing less bucks in general, this seeing less big bucks, the problem lies in mismanagement of buck:doe ratios. They need to shoot more does and much less bucks.
The problem in MT is we are seeing too few deer in a lot of places, at least a whole lot fewer deer than in previous years. We don't need to kill MD does. However, we got here due to more factors than just doe tags. There has to be some small bucks survive to eventually become big bucks. However, I agree, folks should shoot what makes them happy and is legal. Besides a few districts, I'm not for pure trophy management unless it's private land.
 
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