What is wrong with outserts?

[Brendan]

To be honest - I just used the Easton Epoxy that comes with them. I did let them sit for the full 24 hours curing before I used them, and I use the appropriately sized field points to go with them for practice. Pretty sure there are plenty others here who can chime in about them too.

Regarding the VPA footers - I think the one difference is there's a larger mating surface on the end of the arrow. If you look at the gold tip system, the insert partially covers part of the end of the shaft, and then the outsert mounts over that. With the VPA or the Easton BAR, you have the HIT inside and recessed, and then the footer by itself on the end of the shaft. And, unlike the gold tip, it's a footer back over the shaft as opposed to an insert/outsert that extends out in front. But you're right - I could see some issues with bag targets and them eventually getting tweaked that way.

 

[sneaky]

Jmez, I can't believe you haven't lost any inserts with that cool melt glue. I've got, or at least, had, a bunch of it when I had my shop. I can't stand that stuff lol

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[Beendare]

Some SME's on this site....its worth listening to them.

Brendan, Good point about "No Upside"

They were better in the wind....and they are stronger than the wrapped shafts [Bemans were pultruded]......at least thats what the factory guys told us back then.

Well the problem is the fletching has a lot more influence than the shaft diameter. The club I've shot at for 3 decades has a strong crosswind. The skinny Bemans with the FF 360's I was shooting for hunting at the time actually drifted a bit worse than the new [at the time] Axis shafts with blazers.

Then to Brendans point; in that much wind where it matters....its not your arrow shaft that screws you...its your bow catching the wind like a sail.

As a side note, those old pultruded shafts were pretty tough...but if you broke one you knew it, they splayed open with hundreds of hair like strands. At least you knew when they were broken.

I did have one crazy incident with those.....I shot a buck on Kodiak at 70 yds [back when I could SHOOT- grin] right in the pocket and when he lunged forward pushing back with his left leg he cut that shaft in half like it came off of an arrow saw....I never thought it possible with those pultruded shafts.

 

[mfllood3800]

Some SME's on this site....its worth listening to them.

Brendan, Good point about "No Upside"

They were better in the wind....and they are stronger than the wrapped shafts [Bemans were pultruded]......at least thats what the factory guys told us back then.

Well the problem is the fletching has a lot more influence than the shaft diameter. The club I've shot at for 3 decades has a strong crosswind. The skinny Bemans with the FF 360's I was shooting for hunting at the time actually drifted a bit worse than the new [at the time] Axis shafts with blazers.

Then to Brendans point; in that much wind where it matters....its not your arrow shaft that screws you...its your bow catching the wind like a sail.

As a side note, those old pultruded shafts were pretty tough...but if you broke one you knew it, they splayed open with hundreds of hair like strands. At least you knew when they were broken.

I did have one crazy incident with those.....I shot a buck on Kodiak at 70 yds [back when I could SHOOT- grin] right in the pocket and when he lunged forward pushing back with his left leg he cut that shaft in half like it came off of an arrow saw....I never thought it possible with those pultruded shafts.

I'm listening, or I wouldn't have started this thread.
I want to listen.
I want to know that my system is good or flawed.

Problem at the time being, is nothing is showing flawed, and only 5MB said he specifically used BEA set ups, yet he did not say he also used the after market SS outs.

But with that said, the assembly of parts with these systems, reveals it is possible for a compromise to manifest.
So I get that. It's just that it hasn't with mine yet, but I see the potential exists, with certain sub standard components for sure.

I do appreciate your insight

 

[FURMAN]

I did not read every post in the thread but I love the BEA X Impacts. The skinny arrows buck the wind much better than traditional arrows in situations where I can hold my bow steady enough to take 70-80 yard shots but it is still pretty windy. I did read in this thread that penetration is not a consideration that is absolutely not true in my experience the penetration is far greater with skinny arrows. I have yet to bend a BE outsert. Yes, I have spin tested, even after missing my target and hitting a metal fence pole once. With regular arrows the pole would have shattered the shaft. I get they are not for everyone but I like the BEAs. I am looking at trying some Eastons.

 

[jmez]

Jmez, I can't believe you haven't lost any inserts with that cool melt glue. I've got, or at least, had, a bunch of it when I had my shop. I can't stand that stuff lol

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Shocked me as well. I dind't think the stuff would work. I used it because I was trying different combinations and I wanted to be able to remove the different outserts and not ruin arrows. As many as I bent it was a good thing. I've have went broke replacing arrows had I epoxied them in.

 

[sneaky]

Shocked me as well. I dind't think the stuff would work. I used it because I was trying different combinations and I wanted to be able to remove the different outserts and not ruin arrows. As many as I bent it was a good thing. I've have went broke replacing arrows had I epoxied them in.

If I can find what i have left I'll send it to you. I had a one pound block of it and some retail packs

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[maninthemaze]

I'm listening, or I wouldn't have started this thread.
I want to listen.
I want to know that my system is good or flawed.

Problem at the time being, is nothing is showing flawed, and only 5MB said he specifically used BEA set ups, yet he did not say he also used the after market SS outs.

But with that said, the assembly of parts with these systems, reveals it is possible for a compromise to manifest.
So I get that. It's just that it hasn't with mine yet, but I see the potential exists, with certain sub standard components for sure.

I do appreciate your insight

I've been reading this thread for my own curiosity. Which Black Eagle outserts are you running? I had some arrows built that are Black Eagle Rampage that have their 56 grain SS half-out installed. These are the exact same outer diameter as my arrow. So I'm having trouble visualizing what you guys are talking about as far as the outsert getting hung up trying to pull the arrow out of a target. Sorry for the rookie question. I'm just trying to learn as much as possible.

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[jmez]

No need sneaky. I use Hit's and just use the enclosed epoxy or gorilla glue them. I put some of the Hit's in with the cool melt and that is a major PITA.

 

[mfllood3800]

I've been reading this thread for my own curiosity. Which Black Eagle outserts are you running? I had some arrows built that are Black Eagle Rampage that have their 56 grain SS half-out installed. These are the exact same outer diameter as my arrow. So I'm having trouble visualizing what you guys are talking about as far as the outsert getting hung up trying to pull the arrow out of a target. Sorry for the rookie question. I'm just trying to learn as much as possible.

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I don't have issues with my SS outsert as the end opposite the broadhead is rounded down a minor bit and slides out easily. Your half - out is slightly different.
I think they were referring to another set up using Easton Hit inserts with a footer, over the end of the shaft. That would have a very minor lip on it that could get caught in a bag type target while pulling arrow out. Most likely not an issue in block target.

 

[5MilesBack]

What do you use as an adhesive for the HITs? I watched my buddy break 4 Axis in one night when the front of the arrow would mushroom after hitting dirt beneath 3d targets.

He must be shooting some super light-spine arrows to break them in the dirt. I have mushroomed a LOT of field tips hitting rock, T-posts, rebar inside 3D targets, and most everything else, but have yet to mushroom the end of an arrow using HIT's in over 10 years of using them.

 

[mfllood3800]

I did not read every post in the thread but I love the BEA X Impacts. The skinny arrows buck the wind much better than traditional arrows in situations where I can hold my bow steady enough to take 70-80 yard shots but it is still pretty windy. I did read in this thread that penetration is not a consideration that is absolutely not true in my experience the penetration is far greater with skinny arrows. I have yet to bend a BE outsert. Yes, I have spin tested, even after missing my target and hitting a metal fence pole once. With regular arrows the pole would have shattered the shaft. I get they are not for everyone but I like the BEAs. I am looking at trying some Eastons.

I am wondering if it is the SS outserts I am using that is keeping me from having these reported issues with the design of outserts. I wont use epoxy for many of my adhesive applications any more as I have seen t become too brittle, even the slow cure. I work with epoxy resins and light weight cloths in another industry and see what stress does to its characteristic integrity. Very minor cracks from vibration. Surface only. Cant imagine what is happening hit after hit on the tips etc we glue in using epoxy. Some designs are better developed to handle this, but in reality are covering a structural compromise.

Do you use the SS or alumn supplied outserts?
What is your glue of choice?

I am finalizing my findings on this BEA choice and seem to have it down to these 2 things as to why I don't have issues that others did.
You are the first person to come to the table claiming the same as me.
Id like to know what we have in common on the build and component side of things please.

I have been using a rubberized glue for 3 years - it is like a CA glue but stays flexible, so in reality it is a hybrid of CA.
I used it high stress applications outside archery for many years and thought about trying in arrow assembly and so far have been pleased.
Bob Smith Ind is the manufacturer of this glue. He is a modeler friend of mine which is why I use his product.

With this said, I am looking at Eastons match grade or BEA Rampage with the HIT, brass , and the footers. I have all the required components in my 2 shopping carts and am trying to decide on nocks. I like nock pins and cant decide which ones I want yet.

 

[FURMAN]

I am wondering if it is the SS outserts I am using that is keeping me from having these reported issues with the design of outserts. I wont use epoxy for many of my adhesive applications any more as I have seen t become too brittle, even the slow cure. I work with epoxy resins and light weight cloths in another industry and see what stress does to its characteristic integrity. Very minor cracks from vibration. Surface only. Cant imagine what is happening hit after hit on the tips etc we glue in using epoxy. Some designs are better developed to handle this, but in reality are covering a structural compromise.


Do you use the SS or alumn supplied outserts?
What is your glue of choice?

I am finalizing my findings on this BEA choice and seem to have it down to these 2 things as to why I don't have issues that others did.
You are the first person to come to the table claiming the same as me.
Id like to know what we have in common on the build and component side of things please.

I have been using a rubberized glue for 3 years - it is like a CA glue but stays flexible, so in reality it is a hybrid of CA.
I used it high stress applications outside archery for many years and thought about trying in arrow assembly and so far have been pleased.
Bob Smith Ind is the manufacturer of this glue. He is a modeler friend of mine which is why I use his product.

With this said, I am looking at Eastons match grade or BEA Rampage with the HIT, brass , and the footers. I have all the required components in my 2 shopping carts and am trying to decide on nocks. I like nock pins and cant decide which ones I want yet.

I am using the outserts that come with the X-Impacts. I am using the glue the BE sells.
Black Eagle Insert and Outsert Adhesive

 

[mfllood3800]

I am using the outserts that come with the X-Impacts. I am using the glue the BE sells.
Black Eagle Insert and Outsert Adhesive

Ok well that doesn't help. I have seen their glue they sell, but never used it. Is it black or clear?

I'm gonna try the HIT set up again. I did it years ago, liked it but wanted to try other stuff. I was using some FMJ and didn't like the durability with those, I also tried some Axis.

I will probably get the Rampage and go from there. I'm very impressed with BEA equipment.
I'll continue to shoot the BEA X Impacts and report if this problem manifests.

You guys have all been great, as usual- Thx

 

[FURMAN]

Ok well that doesn't help. I have seen their glue they sell, but never used it. Is it black or clear?

I'm gonna try the HIT set up again. I did it years ago, liked it but wanted to try other stuff. I was using some FMJ and didn't like the durability with those, I also tried some Axis.

I will probably get the Rampage and go from there. I'm very impressed with BEA equipment.
I'll continue to shoot the BEA X Impacts and report if this problem manifests.

You guys have all been great, as usual- Thx

Black.

 

[mfllood3800]

I am wondering if this CA glue they are using is also rubberized.
My glue is black, where most CA is clear.

Anyway I just ordered the Rampage 300, with nock pins and nocks from BEA
The HIT Brass inserts from Lancaster
the footers I am still reviewing

 

[Gumbo]

What do you use as an adhesive for the HITs? I watched my buddy break 4 Axis in one night when the front of the arrow would mushroom after hitting dirt beneath 3d targets. That really turned me off of the HIT system. I'm thinking super glue would be a bad deal for the HITs, but 24 hr epoxy might be better. That may have been the problem.
I've seen those VPA footers but they reminded me too much of the Gold Tip collars. Maybe they're thicker/better, but after seeing the Valkyrie system I decided to give it a run first. I think the brass HIT and a VPA footer will be my next experiment if I can't find a shaft to hold up to impacts with the Valkyrie component system.

The high impact goat tuff adhesive is what I use for HITs in my Rampages. This is the black rubberized stuff. I don't have issues with it banana peeling my shafts unless I screw up and hit a cement wall. I shoot at stuff with judo tips in the field and have never had an issue in that context.

 

[mfllood3800]

Went with Rayzors #3 for my spine

 

[mfllood3800]

Just got a PM from Ray at Rayzors, on my footers.
I'm gonna like this guy.

 

[sneaky]

No need sneaky. I use Hit's and just use the enclosed epoxy or gorilla glue them. I put some of the Hit's in with the cool melt and that is a major PITA.

The Quick HIT glue used to be the best stuff for those inserts, then they stopped making it. Of course, it worked, so they had to quit making it lol

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