What is the group size you are happy with?

[wapitibob]

3 shot groups work just fine for me.

 

[Darkphage]

I think your rifle is probably capable of shooting even tighter groups than the 1.2” group you shared. Trigger control is probably the most important thing that will shrink groups. Practice slowly squeezing the trigger & actually pinning the trigger back for a few seconds before releasing after each shot. Obviously natural point of aim & breathing and a host of other things come into play as well.

Also remember 1 MOA @ 100 yards is a decent group. 1 MOA @ 1000 yards is a 10 inch group. It’s an obvious extrapolation, but many shooters don’t really think about it in terms of what’s an ethical show on game animals.

5 shot group from my 7SAUM. And always remember — just like on social media- people generally only show the “best” result — not me, I’m just good — just saying other people…….. lol

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

Three 3-shot groups provide 9 data points collected under conditions similar to how the rifle might be used in the field. I could care less what the cone of fire will be after three shots. For a target or varmint rifle 10 shots make perfect sense.

At the risk of repeating myself - let a random number generator pick 3 numbers between 1 and 100. How often do you think it will pick both 1 and 100? Pretty much never, obviously. Now have the random number generator pick 30 numbers, and while it likely won't pick both 1 and 100, it will likely get at least one down into the 10s and one up until the 90s.

Now, imagine you did not know in advance the range was 1 and 100, and the purpose of your test was to figure out the maximum possible spread. Now amplify that principle by visualizing random points in a circle of unknown size, instead of just numbers in a linear range. That's how measuring accuracy works. Half the time, your groups will be half the size of what the gun might actually shoot.

To be clear, I don't shoot 30 shot groups every time I go to the range, nor do I need to, nor do I suggest you do. In the life of any given gun, I'll do it once for any given load I intend to shoot a lot of, which for most of my guns is maybe 2 or 3. Once I know what the gun is capable of, I shoot 3 or 5 shot groups like everyone else (and often just 1 or 2 shots when simply checking zero), and as long as they print inside the cone I know the gun can shoot into, that's all I need to know.

 

[General RE LEE]

At the risk of repeating myself - let a random number generator pick 3 numbers between 1 and 100. How often do you think it will pick both 1 and 100? Pretty much never, obviously. Now have the random number generator pick 30 numbers, and while it likely won't pick both 1 and 100, it will likely get at least one down into the 10s and one up until the 90s.

Now, imagine you did not know in advance the range was 1 and 100, and the purpose of your test was to figure out the maximum possible spread. Now amplify that principle by visualizing random points in a circle of unknown size, instead of just numbers in a linear range. That's how measuring accuracy works. Half the time, your groups will be half the size of what the gun might actually shoot.

To be clear, I don't shoot 30 shot groups every time I go to the range, nor do I need to, nor do I suggest you do. In the life of any given gun, I'll do it once for any given load I intend to shoot a lot of, which for most of my guns is maybe 2 or 3. Once I know what the gun is capable of, I shoot 3 or 5 shot groups like everyone else (and often just 1 or 2 shots when simply checking zero), and as long as they print inside the cone I know the gun can shoot into, that's all I need to know.

 

[dårlig jeger]

For those that defend three shot groups, does every 3 shot group look the same? Are they all dead center like the target below?



Or does each 3 shot group have a little different shape, size, or location on the target? Maybe all the groups are sub moa but sometimes at 3 o'clock, sometimes at 7, sometimes at 11?

If they are different (rhetorical, they are) how do you which 3 shot group you are going to get that day, on that deer or whatever?

 

[Packmansion]

A couple of myths to bust here.

Testing for accuracy should be based on the range you intend to shoot at and the consequence of missing. If youre shooting deer at 200 yards 3 shot groups might be enough, id still just do 3 10 shot groups or 5 5shot groups because im a curious guy. 3 shot groups will definitely get you by for close range shots and sighting in your scope. 3 shot groups will not tell you much about accuracy. As a poster above stated that doing 30 shots to measure accuracy is an occasional thing used for calibration. For checking zero id still do a 5 shot group but 3 shots is fine just why not shoot more lol.

How you shoo, like shot strings should not influence your testing. A properly made barrel will not walk. If you see walking, it's likely stringing for poor shooting or your rifle is less accurate than you thought or you got a bad barrel. My buddy had a rifle that the cold bore shot was always off but the gun was a 3 moa rifle so it actually wasn't due to cold bore it was just an inaccurate rifle. Some 3 shot groups looked great. Then it would open and close. This was due to his sample size being so small chasing his tail. He was focusing on variables that did not matter. Whether a prairie dog gun or a deer rifle it doesnt matter. 3 shot groups are misleading. If youre 3 shot groups are consistently .5 moa I would just assume its a 1.5 moa gun which is plenty good for shooting deer at 200. Maybe you have 6 deer tags and private land and many opportunities. 3 shots wont tell you how bad your rifle is but it will hint at how good it can be. I care about worst case because I care about knowing my true effective range and I want to shoot as far as I confidently can.

For western hunting you will have limited opportunities to take an animal. Being able to confidently engage targets passed past 600 yards from field positions makes the occasional 500 yard shot on game more likely to be successful. You'll also known if you can take it depending on the conditions. Shooting on windy days, testing your skills and knowing your rifles accuracy is more than just groups sizes.

As your ranges extend, wind calls, ballistic coefficient and skill become more and more critical and accuracy of the rifle provide diminishing returns because like gravity accuracy is predicatble and can be accounted for. You dont need a .5 moa rifle if youre shooting at 300 yards 3 moa will do you just fine.

I got into reloading because of competitions where a large volume of ammo is used for practicing and competing. If you are just hunting reloading provides very little benefit especially if your effective range is 200 and in. Id happily go buy 100 rounds of factory and at the start of every season do a 3 shot for sighting and take off. 200 yard shots require minimal skill even in the field. That being said I think this is a diverse crowd some using factory shooting deer at 200 other maybe doing long range work and reloading trying to isolate the most critical variables to optimize their processes.

 

[Harvey_NW]

For the ranges you’re shooting an inch is perfectly acceptable. I’ve never understood 10-shot groups when testing a big game rifle. When will you ever shoot 10 shots at big game? Test your rifle under the conditions it’ll be used. 3-shot groups are perfect in my opinion. I’d much rather have data from three 3-shot groups than one 10-shot group. Let your rifle throughly cool between groups.

It's a sample size thing, not a use case scenario. The important part is at least 10+ shots at the same target, or composited, to see the dispersion pattern.

At the risk of repeating myself - let a random number generator pick 3 numbers between 1 and 100. How often do you think it will pick both 1 and 100? Pretty much never, obviously. Now have the random number generator pick 30 numbers, and while it likely won't pick both 1 and 100, it will likely get at least one down into the 10s and one up until the 90s.

Now, imagine you did not know in advance the range was 1 and 100, and the purpose of your test was to figure out the maximum possible spread. Now amplify that principle by visualizing random points in a circle of unknown size, instead of just numbers in a linear range. That's how measuring accuracy works. Half the time, your groups will be half the size of what the gun might actually shoot.

To be clear, I don't shoot 30 shot groups every time I go to the range, nor do I need to, nor do I suggest you do. In the life of any given gun, I'll do it once for any given load I intend to shoot a lot of, which for most of my guns is maybe 2 or 3. Once I know what the gun is capable of, I shoot 3 or 5 shot groups like everyone else (and often just 1 or 2 shots when simply checking zero), and as long as they print inside the cone I know the gun can shoot into, that's all I need to know.

This is one of the best analogies I've ever read, well said.

 

[Andouille]

10 shots under 1", with a mean radius of 0.3" or less makes me happy with my suppressed 6.5CM tikka 20" factory rifle. I have a little less stringent expectations with larger calibers, due to their inherent reduced shootability.

Edit- Let's be realistic, under 1" from a benchrest position... I would be happy with under 1.5" from a field position.

 

[Packmansion]

10 shots under 1", with a mean radius of 0.3" or less makes me happy with my suppressed 6.5CM. I have a little less stringent expectations with larger calibers, due to their inherent reduced shootability.

That's a great gun. Factory tikka?

 

[fishesman]

It's a sample size thing, not a use case scenario. The important part is at least 10+ shots at the same target, or composited, to see the dispersion pattern.


This is one of the best analogies I've ever read, well said.

Nobody said anything about firing a single 3-shot group and calling it a day. Obviously, more data is better (and necessary). My problem with 10-shot groups is you're mostly testing what happens when you heat your barrel up. I'm assuming you're firing those shots relatively quickly. If you're cooling between shots then a single 10-shot group or three 3-shot groups is probably going to give you very similar results. The 3-shot groups will probably be a little larger due to heating.

 

[Packmansion]

Nobody said anything about firing a single 3-shot group and calling it a day. Obviously, more data is better (and necessary). My problem with 10-shot groups is you're mostly testing what happens when you heat your barrel up. I'm assuming you're firing those shots relatively quickly. If you're cooling between shots then a single 10-shot group or three 3-shot groups is probably going to give you very similar results. The 3-shot groups will probably be a little larger due to heating.

Why cant you shoot a ten shot group slowly?

 

[Harvey_NW]

Nobody said anything about firing a single 3-shot group and calling it a day. Obviously, more data is better (and necessary). My problem with 10-shot groups is you're mostly testing what happens when you heat your barrel up. I'm assuming you're firing those shots relatively quickly. If you're cooling between shots then a single 10-shot group or three 3-shot groups is probably going to give you very similar results. The 3-shot groups will probably be a little larger due to heating.

You can only assume that by context when people say 3 shot groups. And unless your barrel has stress in the grain structure from improper stress relief, that is false. You can shoot 3 at a time, or 10 in a row, and both groups should fall within the cone of fire. Deviation from heat is a myth with quality barrels, and an excuse for trash barrels. You can see results of that test with multiple rifles in this thread.

 

[krhuntin]

For most scenarios to get a good accurate load, i like to be 0.5" groups and consistency. Meaning my first cold bore shot has to be included in that 0.5" group or i do not continue with the load development. For my all in one go to rifle, that has to be 0.25". Just me as i have the time so i figure why not.

 

[Harvey_NW]

For most scenarios to get a good accurate load, i like to be 0.5" groups and consistency. Meaning my first cold bore shot has to be included in that 0.5" group or i do not continue with the load development. For my all in one go to rifle, that has to be 0.25". Just me as i have the time so i figure why not.

How many shots in the groups you're measuring?

 

[krhuntin]

How many shots in the groups you're measuring?

If it is a pencil thin barrel, i do 3 shot groups then immediately go out to 500 yards to confirm grouping. If it is a little thicker barrel and not bothered by heating up to the extreme then 5 shots. if it is 5 shots, most of the time i can obtain 0.5" and usually happy with that if it is consistent with cold bore.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Are you interested in learning a better way to do things?

 

[jethrob]

Less than 1" group at 100 then confirm less than 1 moa at longer ranges.

 

[Hondo64d]

I am still quite new with reloading rifles.
I am starting to figure some things out finally after a ton of reading and asking questions.
The Thread Form has was a huge eye opener.
Still have some work to do with another rifle using Forms method.

With that said what I have been doing is OCW load dev.
The rifle I picked to do this with is my Savage Axis 6.5CM.
I use it hunting here at home for whitetail.
Factory rounds I have used in it for the last couple of years is the Hornady Precision Hunter 143 ELD-x.
Now I will say with the factory rounds I have only ever shot 3 round groups to zero. It will hold a .750 group. But I have never shot the factory stuff for 10 rounds to see how it will hold that way.

So with my current reloads I started as I said earlier doing OCW.
Started at .050 off the lands. The charge weight I ended up at was 40.9 of H4350 with Hornady Cases CCI primers and a 143 ELDx
As it stands now my 10 shot group with this setup netted me the below group.
View attachment 883723

The 2 outliers were shot 9 & 10. So I think the barrel was starting to move a bit maybe.

So being the person to get bored last night I decided to do some testing with seating depths.
So I loaded 5 each running the same charge and components at .010,.020,.030 & .040 off the lands.
I have the mag length so I wanted to give them a try seated out longer.

So my question to you all experienced guys. When are you happy with a hunting rifle group wise?
I am not a 1000 yard shooter by any means. Maybe at best most shots I would ever have with this rifle in the field is maybe 400.
I have 550 to shoot at my gun club. Which I haven't done yet. But hope to go this weekend.

Would you be happy with the group above for a hunting rifle?

I’ll accept 10 round groups of less than 1 MOA, but I am bad to keep load testing until I get better. It’s a curse…

John