What if???

[Laramie]

I like to eat elk too much to be that picky. I do focus on mature animals but if my only chance towards the end of the season is a rag, or a spike, or a cow on years it's any sex, I fill the freezer. I have only shot 3 rag horns in 30 years of hunting elk, but those 3 were delicious just like the big bulls and cows.

 

[Laramie]

One other side note worth mentioning- You would end up with a LOT of broken racked bulls on lower moisture years. I have guided a few ranches through the years where there was an abundance of mature bulls. On low moisture years, it was challenging to find a 300"+ bull that wasn't broken by rifle season.

 

[GregB]

What if people didn't care about how big the antlers were and impressing others, and they just went hunting and killed what they were happy with.

 

[CoHiCntry]

What if people didn't care about how big the antlers were and impressing others, and they just went hunting and killed what they were happy with.

Hmmm...what if???

 

[jmez]

I find the dichotomy of trophy hunting interesting. It is firmly entrenched in the WT woods and is creeping its way west.

It is always the same path and arguments. Lesser animals present no challenge. The challenge of taking "mature" animals, buzzword to replace horns, is so much greater and fulfilling. No longer take any pleasure or pride in "easy" hunts. As the "mature animal" hunter gets deeper into this, they start calling for antler restrictions and limits on the masses. Become more vocal about what others should take and enjoy in the outdoors.

As they "progress" through the trophy hunter stages they get to a point where they are calling for everyone to have restraint. Why? So there are more trophy class animals around increasing their own odds of taking one. Essentially making their self avowed "harder hunt," easier. There are trophy animals in every unit, draw or otherwise. If you really strive for the "challenge" the hunt them and get on every year. What could be more fulfilling.

Leave those of us that really don't care out of it. My enjoyment doesn't, and will never, match yours.

 

[Deadfall]

I find the dichotomy of trophy hunting interesting. It is firmly entrenched in the WT woods and is creeping its way west.

It is always the same path and arguments. Lesser animals present no challenge. The challenge of taking "mature" animals, buzzword to replace horns, is so much greater and fulfilling. No longer take any pleasure or pride in "easy" hunts. As the "mature animal" hunter gets deeper into this, they start calling for antler restrictions and limits on the masses. Become more vocal about what others should take and enjoy in the outdoors.

As they "progress" through the trophy hunter stages they get to a point where they are calling for everyone to have restraint. Why? So there are more trophy class animals around increasing their own odds of taking one. Essentially making their self avowed "harder hunt," easier. There are trophy animals in every unit, draw or otherwise. If you really strive for the "challenge" the hunt them and get on every year. What could be more fulfilling.

Leave those of us that really don't care out of it. My enjoyment doesn't, and will never, match

Not calling for anything. We don't need more government. Sorry you're offended, was not my intention to offend anyone

 

[S.Clancy]

I find the dichotomy of trophy hunting interesting. It is firmly entrenched in the WT woods and is creeping its way west.

It is always the same path and arguments. Lesser animals present no challenge. The challenge of taking "mature" animals, buzzword to replace horns, is so much greater and fulfilling. No longer take any pleasure or pride in "easy" hunts. As the "mature animal" hunter gets deeper into this, they start calling for antler restrictions and limits on the masses. Become more vocal about what others should take and enjoy in the outdoors.

As they "progress" through the trophy hunter stages they get to a point where they are calling for everyone to have restraint. Why? So there are more trophy class animals around increasing their own odds of taking one. Essentially making their self avowed "harder hunt," easier. There are trophy animals in every unit, draw or otherwise. If you really strive for the "challenge" the hunt them and get on every year. What could be more fulfilling.

Leave those of us that really don't care out of it. My enjoyment doesn't, and will never, match yours.

Haha, this is so spot on.

 

[Wmmichael20]

Well your not wrong. If it became an unwritten rule and no one ever shot a bull less than 315” we would see a lot more big mature animals. I’m generally of the idea that I personally would rather shoot a cow than a rag horn. Like I really need another set of antlers cluttering the house. Not that I have an issue with others shooting raghorns it’s just a personal thing for me.

As a real world example though, Michigan implemented antler restrictions on deer. Has to have 3 pts on a side to be legal. Harvest dropped for a few years then suddenly everyone was shooting the best bucks they had ever taken. Growing up I never even saw an 8 point buck while hunting let alone actually kill one. My dad has taken nice 8pts every year for the last three years and he hunts like 2 days a year anymore.

Only three on a side...in my county they made our apr. 4 on a side.....right after two years of unlimited doe tags and Brown is down mantality.

 

[AaronMColeman]

I think this has a few things to consider.

1) I hunt for meat. So do a lot of people around me. We would be pretty bummed if we couldn't fill our freezers. Also, we aren't the only ones hunting the elk. Seem to be a good number of posts this year regarding increased wolf predation.

2) I'm far from an expert but I do know that a lot of antler size has to do with habitat. Certain areas just will not produce that many 300+ bulls regardless of management. Habitat, Age, and Genetics...no guarantee they'll get huge regardless of hunting. I'll try to find a really interesting article I read about antler size and habitat, seems to play a larger roll than genetics.

3) This is the age old debate about opportunity management versus trophy management. I would like to learn more about this. As it stands I'd rather have good opportunity than a trophy unit.


Plus this would never work because you have guys like me. Every year I tell myself I'm going to hold out for something decent. But every year I shoot the first legal bull to come by. I can't help it. I could tell myself all day long "don't shoot the raghorn". Then the raghorn shows up and I can't help it!

 

[jmez]

I'm not offended at all. I've just watched all of this evolve in the WT world. Started the same way. Going to end the same in Western hunting as well. 2 deeply divided factions that don't agree on anything. Give it time.

 

[wyosam]

It can, but only in the short term. Overall bull:cow ratio is habitat and herd dependent. Populations just naturally tend one way or the other. We don't usually get to see what nature intended outside of national parks. If you compare ratios in Yellowstone to those in Rocky Mountain, you'll see differences.

Jeremy

The YS park elk get hunted as well, but it is almost exclusively cows on late season hunts once they leave the park and not in huge numbers anymore.


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[Crowmangler]

This discussion is completely different for elk vs. deer.

GENERALLY SPEAKING, you have a chance to harvest a "mature" deer in any one of 40 states and getting a tag is relatively inexpensive & pretty much guaranteed in most of them.

With elk you're talking only a handful of states that you have a chance to see a mature bull. You may have to wait many years to draw a very expensive tag. Then you spend tons of money on gear, burn 2 weeks of vacation, drive 28 hours each way, hike 50 + miles to hunt 5 days & know going in you have around 10% chance of being successful. It's real hard to pass up a legal bull when you know you may not get another chance for a long time.

When you figure in hunting time opportunity that just jacks it up even more. If I can hunt 5 weeks vs 5 days I'm gonna be a lot more picky.

And elk are just so tasty!

 

[fbhandler]

I’m primarily a meat hunter as well... so opportunity is far more important to me then quality. Seems like Idaho has a decent system, managing the OTC units for that opportunity while also having the controlled hunts for quality, it’s nice having the choice...

Not to mention that if the OP is looking for “intimacy”/challenge, I agree that bow hunting mature bulls is in a class by itself, but add to that trying to find and kill that same animal in a pressured, OTC unit is quite a bit harder again. Seems like the “what if” is about trying to make that task easier, rather then more challenging.

 

[Wapiti1]

The YS park elk get hunted as well, but it is almost exclusively cows on late season hunts once they leave the park and not in huge numbers anymore.


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True. Both park herds are hunted in the late season, but they are as close to unhunted populations as we have for comparison purposes. Wolves are the main driver in Yellowstone and have hurt the old solitary bulls the most.. RMNP will unfortunately see the same in 5-10 years if things go as they seem to be.

Jeremy

 

[Bubblehide]

IMNSHO, harvesting only mature animals (both sexes) would improve the health of the herds. I mean, I am talking about harvesting animals at the latter/end of their life cycles; rather than animals at the early stages of their life cycles. Mature animals are significantly more difficult to hunt than immature animals. So the result would be less animals harvested. However, requiring antler point restrictions has not been effective in the past on deer, and resulted in lesser bucks being left dead in the field (rifle season). So I don't believe antler restrictions is a viable solution in most cases. I think most states are doing a good job at meating (pun intended) hunters desires as is. I mean, there are trophy opportunities, as there are freezer filler opportunities, and we are left to make our own choices in if we want to fill the freezer, or only take an animal at the end stages of their life.

 

[roosiebull]

What if everyone on public land decided to only harvest mature animal? What if it became a kind of unwritten rule. Instead of shooting raghorns or basketball whitetails we harvest a cow or doe?

Been thinking about this for awhile. I believe it would take a couple years, however, I also believe the quality of bulls would increase rapidly. Let the young ones grow up.

This is something I've adopted long ago personally. Implemented it with the guiding I do on public land as well. This was my last year guiding and have some places to hunt that very few go into. The ones that do, have about the same philosophy.

Obviously holding out for a 360 inch bull is ridiculous expectation for masses. What if everyone held out for a bull over 315?

For myself I have a fairly high standard of shoot a cow. Personal choice..

What if?

if everyone switched to trad bows and kept their shots inside 20yds, the quality of bulls would increase... lots of ways. if you held out for a 315 in my region, "shooters" would be few and far between.... i think a very small percentage of coastal roosies could get that big regardless of age. i have killed old bulls that don't come close.... one bull i killed was 8.5yrs, really cool bull, big 5xcrab claw 6, and maybe 250....

mature and score don't always line up in real life.

that aside, we all hunt for different reasons, i really don't care about antlers.... i have a couple trophy representatives of every species i hunt, and that's good for me.... i also have several mature animals i have killed that don't fit any broad trophy criteria.

i hunt for a huge list of reason, but a big part of it is having enough fish and wild game to eat all year, that's a big aspect for me. a "trophy encounter" is every bit as cool to me as huge antlers, and as long lasting.... calling a bull into spitting distance, making that perfect shot, and watching it tip over.... i have a hard time passing that up.

nothing wrong with having personal selfish "what if's" but the reality is silly.

another aspect, if smaller bulls quit getting killed, and you get a more mature age class, and you start getting a bunch of big ones running around, is that big one as cool anymore? it's all relative... in real life, big huge specimens are awesome due to their rarity.... they are hard to come by, that's why they are cool.... it's impressive when someone kills a pig on public ground in an otc unit, it's less impressive when someone does it on private property that's managed for those monsters (to me) it's all relative to me.

the standards i set for myself are to prolong my season, not to get a big set of antlers. the units i hunt are 4-8% success rates for archery elk on average, most have no standards, it's hard enough to keep it fun for me. i usually kill the first branch bull i get a chance at, i have held out for bigger bulls in years past.... it all depends on the year and the time i have.... my goal is to kill a bull

 

[Deadfall]

Everybody hung up on tge antler thing. Wasn't where I was trying to go. Should of worded different I guess. Oh well still good conver at any rate

 

[AaronMColeman]

True. Both park herds are hunted in the late season, but they are as close to unhunted populations as we have for comparison purposes. Wolves are the main driver in Yellowstone and have hurt the old solitary bulls the most.. RMNP will unfortunately see the same in 5-10 years if things go as they seem to be.

Jeremy

That’s a good point. I had t thought about wolves targeting the lone old bull elk. That would make sense.

 

[Dos Perros]

It can, but only in the short term. Overall bull:cow ratio is habitat and herd dependent. Populations just naturally tend one way or the other. We don't usually get to see what nature intended outside of national parks. If you compare ratios in Yellowstone to those in Rocky Mountain, you'll see differences.

Jeremy

Well sure, one has wolves and the other doesn’t. That’s not surprising.

 

[MTSasquatch]

Not everyone hunts elk to find “mature” bulls, which already is a definition open to some differing interpretation. I’d wager the majority of people in my state elk hunt to stuff the freezer, as has been the case for my family after 4 generations. Just because one guy wants the potential to exist for more larger antlered bull elk everywhere doesn’t mean the bulk of elk hunters need follow suit. That leads to fewer elk hunters and we all know where that can lead.

Rather, I’d suggest, as is followed by the majority of management agencies, a healthy and available population of elk where they can be maintained for perpetuity. Then everyone wins.