What if???

[Deadfall]

What if everyone on public land decided to only harvest mature animal? What if it became a kind of unwritten rule. Instead of shooting raghorns or basketball whitetails we harvest a cow or doe?

Been thinking about this for awhile. I believe it would take a couple years, however, I also believe the quality of bulls would increase rapidly. Let the young ones grow up.

This is something I've adopted long ago personally. Implemented it with the guiding I do on public land as well. This was my last year guiding and have some places to hunt that very few go into. The ones that do, have about the same philosophy.

Obviously holding out for a 360 inch bull is ridiculous expectation for masses. What if everyone held out for a bull over 315?

For myself I have a fairly high standard of shoot a cow. Personal choice..

What if?

 

[WeiserBucks]

If everyone only killed cows for 5 years while waiting for the bulls to mature what do you think would happen? You'd have a few more big bulls for a while and the overall population would crash harder than Charlie Sheen when the bag runs out.

 

[Northpark]

Well your not wrong. If it became an unwritten rule and no one ever shot a bull less than 315” we would see a lot more big mature animals. I’m generally of the idea that I personally would rather shoot a cow than a rag horn. Like I really need another set of antlers cluttering the house. Not that I have an issue with others shooting raghorns it’s just a personal thing for me.

As a real world example though, Michigan implemented antler restrictions on deer. Has to have 3 pts on a side to be legal. Harvest dropped for a few years then suddenly everyone was shooting the best bucks they had ever taken. Growing up I never even saw an 8 point buck while hunting let alone actually kill one. My dad has taken nice 8pts every year for the last three years and he hunts like 2 days a year anymore.

 

[Deadfall]

I dont think the 10 percent stat would change much. Seems to be lots of data for this working on private land. Deer units in Missouri adopted a 4 point rule years ago which to be working, although I haven't hunted back there for a few years so I'm guessing.

Elk are a different deal in alot of ways. Also some similarities

 

[Northpark]

If everyone only killed cows for 5 years while waiting for the bulls to mature what do you think would happen? You'd have a few more big bulls for a while and the overall population would crash harder than Charlie Sheen when the bag runs out.

This is a good point. You’d have to have limited cow tags I think.

 

[mtwarden]

harvesting cows and does is a great way to reduce populations, that's why it's instituted when numbers are above objective

if your goal is to reduce an elk herd, go hard after the cows

 

[Deadfall]

This is a good point. You’d have to have limited cow tags I think.

Unit i primarily hunt here in montana has a quota on cows already

 

[Northpark]

Unit i primarily hunt here in montana has a quota on cows already

The only real way to do it would be like that or limited tags. You would have to not shoot too many cows. I like the idea though

 

[Deadfall]

For me when I started getting picky I also rekindled some old passions for just being there. Hunting old mature animals is an entirely different ballgame then just hunting in general.

Made me think more about setups especially when guiding. Started paying more attention to what, how and why animals are doing animal stuff. Now years later my experiences in the woods are pretty intense.

Long ago it became a intimacy game for me and quit being a killing game. I'm exclusively a archer. There's something about being in close to a big mature bull.

Most anyone with any experience at all can get in close to a raghorn without a great deal of effort.

Theres something special about working on a mature smart bull. Sometimes its hours of cat and mouse. Sometimes its days.

Hunting mature bulls is an experience like no other. Its one of those things I wish for everyone. As big of emotional swing as elk hunting in general is. Its magnified exponentially when standards are raised.

I just wonder what if...usually after one of them suckers out smarts me and I'm laying on a mountain somewhere completely depleted

 

[Dave_]

I like this in limited draw units where quality is the objective. Bugs me a little when 1st time elk hunters draw a great unit and shoot a rag horn, but that's also no different than an experienced hunter settles for a lesser bull later in the hunt. But also good for them for getting it done, theres usually plenty of space and bulls for bulls to grow mature in limited draw areas.

But in otc/general units, filling my freezer is my objective, although I prefer to take a mature animal given the opportunity. You need to decrease hunter opportunity to increase age structure.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

[S.Clancy]

What if everyone on public land decided to only harvest mature animal? What if it became a kind of unwritten rule. Instead of shooting raghorns or basketball whitetails we harvest a cow or doe?

Been thinking about this for awhile. I believe it would take a couple years, however, I also believe the quality of bulls would increase rapidly. Let the young ones grow up.

This is something I've adopted long ago personally. Implemented it with the guiding I do on public land as well. This was my last year guiding and have some places to hunt that very few go into. The ones that do, have about the same philosophy.

Obviously holding out for a 360 inch bull is ridiculous expectation for masses. What if everyone held out for a bull over 315?

For myself I have a fairly high standard of shoot a cow. Personal choice..

What if?

Wouldn't it be the same as hunting a limited entry unit? Even the best LE units in my state (MT) still have plenty of immature bulls and it's not like 320"+ bulls are hiding behind every tree. The fact is that bulls suffer a significant annual mortality rate even without being hunted by humans. It would change age structure some, but wouldn't be paradise either.
I think you're also ignoring the importance that habitat, specifically winter range habitat, has on bull survival and antler growth.

 

[Idaho4x4Bronco]

Wouldn't it be the same as hunting a limited entry unit? Even the best LE units in my state (MT) still have plenty of immature bulls and it's not like 320"+ bulls are hiding behind every tree. The fact is that bulls suffer a significant annual mortality rate even without being hunted by humans. It would change age structure some, but wouldn't be paradise either.
I think you're also ignoring the importance that habitat, specifically winter range habitat, has on bull survival and antler growth.

Imagine only harvesting the old, boot leather chewy stinky elk.

 

[Dos Perros]

harvesting cows and does is a great way to reduce populations, that's why it's instituted when numbers are above objective

if your goal is to reduce an elk herd, go hard after the cows

Can't it also be a way to make for a more even bull:cow ratio?

 

[Wapiti1]

It won't work. All that would happen is the limited resource of older animals would be decimated and you'd never see one. Antler point restrictions only protect the age class below the restriction and force harvest to the older age classes. It effectively lowers age structure since those younger animals that would have been shot now became older animals that did get shot. You have to spread the harvest amongst all age classes and reduce the population evenly. There are tons of studies on it and none end in lots of mature animals.

The idea is predicated on there being enough of those animals to sustain a yearly harvest. There aren't to start with. The only way to improve age structure is to limit harvest entirely. i.e. go limited entry.

Jeremy

 

[S.Clancy]

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3784153?seq=1

Here's a link to a study of different management applications for hunting bulls. This is obviously different from what you're proposing, but in the same vein. Basically, this shows antler restrictions don't work for increasing age class. Same has been found in deer.

 

[Wapiti1]

Can't it also be a way to make for a more even bull:cow ratio?

It can, but only in the short term. Overall bull:cow ratio is habitat and herd dependent. Populations just naturally tend one way or the other. We don't usually get to see what nature intended outside of national parks. If you compare ratios in Yellowstone to those in Rocky Mountain, you'll see differences.

Jeremy

 

[Wapiti1]

Fact Sheet 06: Understanding Mule Deer and Antler Point Restrictions – WAFWA

Another good read on antler point restrictions targeted at mule deer.

Jeremy

 

[Deadfall]

Wouldn't it be the same as hunting a limited entry unit? Even the best LE units in my state (MT) still have plenty of immature bulls and it's not like 320"+ bulls are hiding behind every tree. The fact is that bulls suffer a significant annual mortality rate even without being hunted by humans. It would change age structure some, but wouldn't be paradise either.
I think you're also ignoring the importance that habitat, specifically winter range habitat, has on bull survival and antler growth.

Already paradise

 

[Deadfall]

Something I started out doing for myself. As a guide I started wondering if a client on a 7 day hunt would wait. Found they wont...haha...started focusing on how to get a hunter that doesn't know past the rags and into the mature. Last 3 years the archery season has been pretty special. In that time only killed 2 bulls under 290. While my hunters have had a harvest rate close to 100 percent.
The outfit I work for does drop camps as well. Those hang in that 10 percent range. We are hunting same country.

Point is I started focusing on hunter experience. Which, in turn made me focus even more on the hunting part and less on the killing part.

While there was a learning curve and a painful one at times...haha...clients are repeat and request me by name.

We hunt in a OTC public land unit.

Anyway, changing my standard completely changed my experiences in woods. On every level.

 

[Deadfall]

Wouldn't it be the same as hunting a limited entry unit? Even the best LE units in my state (MT) still have plenty of immature bulls and it's not like 320"+ bulls are hiding behind every tree. The fact is that bulls suffer a significant annual mortality rate even without being hunted by humans. It would change age structure some, but wouldn't be paradise either.
I think you're also ignoring the importance that habitat, specifically winter range habitat, has on bull survival and antler growth.

Yap sure would. Just think of it. No need to put in for and wait, when bulls are maturing in otc units....
Agreed they do suffer...
As for habitat....thats a whole conversation in itself