What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Billogna]

And a 223 in the vitals kills either.

However, the needs of each situation is different.

You missed my point. It's just a bad comparison.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they are both fruit and make a delicious juice, but I'm not sure sure they could replace one another in a recipe.

There are anecdotes from the spec ops community about a (at the time) new ammo developed by Black Hills that were “one hitter quitters”. A new (at the time) round that ended the fight immediately. No drama. No question. Before then they were using 62 grain “green tip armor piercing “and reporting back that it took multiple shots (7 to 8 in some cases) to put a threat down. And these new bullets had green tips too….Just what do you think they were shooting?

 

[Schmo]

There are anecdotes from the spec ops community about a (at the time) new ammo developed by Black Hills that were “one hitter quitters”. A new (at the time) round that ended the fight immediately. No drama. No question. Before then they were using 62 grain “green tips” and reporting back that it took multiple shots (7 to 8 in some cases) to put a threat down. Just what do you think they were shooting?

Ding ding ding! We have a winner! Enter the 77 TMK!

 

[goalie]

If you don't hit the CNS, you don't get a guaranteed stop. Doesn't matter what your shooting

I haven't been in a "lot" of gunfights but I've been in more than zero (Marines)

It isn't anything like hunting and hunting I often choose to miss stuff that = drop right there, as a little tracking isn't a huge deal where I hunt

 

[ShadowAviator]

Read very carefully. I am not speaking out against using small caliber on deer.

I am just saying that comparing cartridges for combat and cartridges for hunting is not a good argument.

Maybe I'm just not making my point very well. I was trying to be helpful, but I see that I have only muddied the waters.

 

[cal30_sniper]

Very astute. Now what parameters do you think the FBI set's it's gel up to simulate?

The ballistics gel is ‘set up’ to replicate living tissue. The original formula was derived from pig tissue, which I think we all should be able to agree is in family with both human and ungulate tissue. Any difference between the three is certainly within the variability that is present in the pass/fail criteria for calibrated ballistics gel.

The FBI was talking about effectiveness with solid chest hits in humans.

The tests in question were shooting 5.56 and 7.62 TMKs into calibrated ballistics gelatin. They weren’t putting the ballistics blocks into clothing, including bone structure, or doing anything else to the gel to represent one specific use case or another that would relegate it to only applicable to “solid chest hits on humans” like you claim.

 

[RockAndSage]

I am just saying that comparing cartridges for combat and cartridges for hunting is not a good argument.

A key part of the small caliber/cartridge discussion is that only hits count. That's true in both arenas.

Small cartridges = more shooting = better shooting = better hit rates = more dead things. In both arenas.

The small caliber bullets in question kill without question - at least by those who have either personal experience with them, or those with an open mind who have studied the threads here.

For combat, a quick rifle with a high magazine capacity is better.

This is where your waters got muddied. It went from discussing weapon to discussing cartridge.

 

[Billogna]

Read very carefully. I am not speaking out against using small caliber on deer.

I am just saying that comparing cartridges for combat and cartridges for hunting is not a good argument.

Maybe I'm just not making my point very well. I was trying to be helpful, but I see that I have only muddied the waters.

For the people these bullets were developed for, combat and hunting was one and the same.

Edit:
Commas matter….

 

[FredH]

90gr ballistic tips on a 275yd shot (a quick offhand one might I add) in a 19" 243, impact something around 2300fps. 170lb dress buck shot quartered away just in front of the nearside hip, bullet recovered under the hide of the opposite shoulder. 50yd death run into a small cherry tree.

90gr accubond, 2700fps impact on a 160lb dressed buck. Impact through the humerus quartered to. Bullet was stopped somewhere inside the stomach, didn't feel like digging too hard for it.

100gr partition, unknown impact but assumed to be between 2700 and 2800fps. Shot through the shoulders of a mature doe and then complete pass through the fawn standing behind her. Combined distance traveled less than 100yds

95 sst on a 3.5 year old buck, didn't weigh it but in our area that's usually a 165-180lb deer on the hoof. Impact around 2800fps frontal shot, bullet was somewhere behind the diaphragm but again didn't look hard for it.

Pretty sure other than one shot with an 85gr sierra game king and two with 105 a max every other deer we've shot with the 243/6mm rem/6mm creed has had an exit. That's something like 65 or 70 deer using bullets that vary in weight and construction from 80gr ttsx and 85gr speer/sierra to 115 rdf and the 105 a max. Fast shots usually under 100yds, 5 or 6 were running shots during driven hunts. Our longest shot was 350yds

A ballistic tip impacting at 2300 fps is going to give good penetration, how much bone did it break?

A 90 gr. Accubond is one of the tougher .243 bullets yet no corner to corner with bone broken or an exit.

100 gr. Partition is one of the few bullets available not a mono that provides very good penetration.

My experience with the SST showed me a fast expanding bullet, the last one I used was under the hide on the far side no major bone hit though it did hit one rib.

This year my favorite 243 load is pushing the 85 gr. Sierra BTHP. I use it on the south side of the lease where the brush is thinner and I see more coyotes. The other side of the lease I am carrying either a 300 Ham'r with 150 gr. bullets or my 7-08 with 150 grain Ballistic Tips. In most of it you can only see less than 50 yards, mostly 30 yards. The deer are usually moving and you take the best shot you can. Often you can't get a shot off in time because there isn't enough visible to see if it's a good buck, a doe or a spike. You have to identify if it is a shooter and pick a hole through the briars and honeysuckle to send your bullet timed perfectly with the deer being there. This is where the big bucks hang out. Years ago I used a 30-30 and it provided the penetration I wanted. I have used 35 Remington, 35 Whelen, 308 and 30-06 rifles with perfect satisfaction. Most shots are slightly down hill so generally a blood trail happens. I take advantage of the larger deeper wounds bigger rifles provide. I have a trailing dog.