What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[longrangelead]

For me it was finding a rifle for my wife. She was brand new to hunting and shooting. It was soon apparent she didn't enjoy recoil so we looked at smaller cartridges.
She struggled to operate a bolt gun and get back on target quickly so we looked at AR's.
Two states we planned to hunt had .243/6mm minimum so we landed on the 6x45. It was 2015 and all I knew was "I better shoot a Barnes to make up for size". So, shooting the 85gr TSX BT, we headed to Wyoming with a fist full of antelope tags.
It was quickly apparent the 6x45 was more than enough for antelope out to 400yds.
Then we killed some mule deer...same. Then I killed a big cow elk...same.

Between my wife n I, we have six seasons of hunting with 6x45's. We killed a pile of deer and antelope! It was eye opening being able to see hits in the scope and be able to immediately send another shot without moving since we were using AR's.

So, years later, the industry starts making fast twist rifles and slippery, heavy bullets for small calibers in relatively cheap rifles that shoot.
It wasn't a stretch at all once I found the 223 big game thread here. I bought a Tikka 223 and killed a bear with it. Bang...dead. no surprise.

My only disappointment is B tags aren't as available as they used to be...

I want to point out what others have also realized and said. Smaller cartridges have less recoil so shot to shot time is reduced allowing more shots into animals in the first few seconds that count.

That in itself is an important point when comparing big and small cartridges.
I hunted with a 10 pound 300 RUM for most of 10 years. 26" barrel, SRS brake, 210's @ 3000, then 230's @ 3100.

I shot it well enough to see 9 of 10 hits in the scope at any range, so I can tell you from experience, I could put 4, if not 5 223's in an animal in the time it would take to make 3 shots with my RUM simply due to recoil recovery time.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Surprised we still try to explain what we know by headstamps? There’s a much easier way. Why haven’t we evolved to that?

 

[goalie]

For me, the bottom line is that recoil matters.

I'm old. In the Marines I qualified with iron sights. It took a long time to realize that, while doable, irons sucked compared to an optic. For years I was that "hur dur in my day we used irons" guy. Then I tried an ACOG and an Aimpoint. It's easier.

I had an epiphany: Doing stuff harder is dumb.

It's harder to shoot well with more recoil.

So now I don't shoot thumpers

The best part is, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Less recoil = more shooting = better shooting.

 

[RockAndSage]

The best part is, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Less recoil = more shooting = better shooting.

^^^ Wins the most succinctly quotable summary of most of the discussion award.

 

[Shraggs]

We need to come up with FNG Small Caliber Bingo...

1) NOT EMPIRICAL!
2) NO MARGIN FOR ERROR!
3) NOT DATA!

What else...?

Refusing to read recommend threads that actually contain the objective information

 

[NMTGrad]

I’ve been offline bear hunting and guiding. What I don’t see here from anyone is reporting what it’s like to track a large, wounded boar through some of the worst briar thickets you can imagine because the hunter shot the bear square in the shoulder with a caliber/bullet insufficient to penetrate completely. Well, I just got to spend the better part of a night and then the better part of the next day doing just that. It was a new bear hunter who reverted to what they knew from deer hunting when they pulled the trigger on a 500 lb boar. The other guide and I finally found the bear late yesterday afternoon. Actually, he found us. We had called off the search and were slowly working our way out the devil’s country. Turns out the bear had been tracking us. And he was seriously pissed. Ever been charged by a wounded bear? It’ll get your attention really fast. Needless to say, I wasn’t carrying my trusty .223 with 77 gr TMKs. I had a 12 gauge shotgun with 1 oz slugs and my partner had an AR-10. We recovered the bear. Then we changed our pants. The bear’s shoulder was broken, but the bullet failed to do any damage to the underlying organs, don’t was far from a fatal shot. So by all means, if you want to go into the bears’ home and root them out of their beds carrying a .223 where the fight is likely to occur at 15 feet at the most, be my guest. I’ll sit that tracking job out. Belittle all you want. Until I see you next to me in that situation and know you’ll fight, I don’t want to hear it. In a fight like that, I need all the firepower I can get because there is no such thing as a well aimed shot. I need big holes through thick fat and bones at bad angles. Does this happen often? No, thank god. But when it does, it’s real, it’s fast, and it’s violent. See you all on the next tracking job. No wait. I probably won’t. Nevermind. Carry on.

 

[omicron1792]

I’ve been offline bear hunting and guiding. What I don’t see here from anyone is reporting what it’s like to track a large, wounded boar through some of the worst briar thickets you can imagine because the hunter shot the bear square in the shoulder with a caliber/bullet insufficient to penetrate completely. Well, I just got to spend the better part of a night and then the better part of the next day doing just that. It was a new bear hunter who reverted to what they knew from deer hunting when they pulled the trigger on a 500 lb boar. The other guide and I finally found the bear late yesterday afternoon. Actually, he found us. We had called off the search and were slowly working our way out the devil’s country. Turns out the bear had been tracking us. And he was seriously pissed. Ever been charged by a wounded bear? It’ll get your attention really fast. Needless to say, I wasn’t carrying my trusty .223 with 77 gr TMKs. I had a 12 gauge shotgun with 1 oz slugs and my partner had an AR-10. We recovered the bear. Then we changed our pants. The bear’s shoulder was broken, but the bullet failed to do any damage to the underlying organs, don’t was far from a fatal shot. So by all means, if you want to go into the bears’ home and root them out of their beds carrying a .223 where the fight is likely to occur at 15 feet at the most, be my guest. I’ll sit that tracking job out. Belittle all you want. Until I see you next to me in that situation and know you’ll fight, I don’t want to hear it. In a fight like that, I need all the firepower I can get because there is no such thing as a well aimed shot. I need big holes through thick fat and bones at bad angles. Does this happen often? No, thank god. But when it does, it’s real, it’s fast, and it’s violent. See you all on the next tracking job. No wait. I probably won’t. Nevermind. Carry on.

Honest question.

Would a larger caliber shot in same spot through the shoulders (not where a bears vitals are) have gotten to the vitals? Or caused a different outcome?

 

[Formidilosus]

Honest question.

Would a larger caliber shot in same spot through the shoulders (not where a bears vitals are) have gotten to the vitals? Or caused a different outcome?

I’ll take “incident that never happened” for $500 Alex.

 

[ShootOkHuntWorse]

I’ve been offline bear hunting and guiding. What I don’t see here from anyone is reporting what it’s like to track a large, wounded boar through some of the worst briar thickets you can imagine because the hunter shot the bear square in the shoulder with a caliber/bullet insufficient to penetrate completely. Well, I just got to spend the better part of a night and then the better part of the next day doing just that. It was a new bear hunter who reverted to what they knew from deer hunting when they pulled the trigger on a 500 lb boar. The other guide and I finally found the bear late yesterday afternoon. Actually, he found us. We had called off the search and were slowly working our way out the devil’s country. Turns out the bear had been tracking us. And he was seriously pissed. Ever been charged by a wounded bear? It’ll get your attention really fast. Needless to say, I wasn’t carrying my trusty .223 with 77 gr TMKs. I had a 12 gauge shotgun with 1 oz slugs and my partner had an AR-10. We recovered the bear. Then we changed our pants. The bear’s shoulder was broken, but the bullet failed to do any damage to the underlying organs, don’t was far from a fatal shot. So by all means, if you want to go into the bears’ home and root them out of their beds carrying a .223 where the fight is likely to occur at 15 feet at the most, be my guest. I’ll sit that tracking job out. Belittle all you want. Until I see you next to me in that situation and know you’ll fight, I don’t want to hear it. In a fight like that, I need all the firepower I can get because there is no such thing as a well aimed shot. I need big holes through thick fat and bones at bad angles. Does this happen often? No, thank god. But when it does, it’s real, it’s fast, and it’s violent. See you all on the next tracking job. No wait. I probably won’t. Nevermind. Carry on.

What bullet didn’t penetrate?

 

[mddat]

because the hunter shot the bear square in the shoulder with a caliber/bullet insufficient to penetrate completely.

Genuinely curious what calibre / cartridge
/ bullet was used?

 

[BLJ]

Genuinely curious what calibre / cartridge
/ bullet was used?

Same.

 

[goalie]

I'm confused. Would not hitting vitals with a bigger bullet have been "better?"

 

[KHntr]

When I hear someone talking about trailing up wounded bears with a 12 gauge I immediately start thinking to myself that they haven’t had to trail up many wounded bears and try to stop them with a 12 gauge…

As someone who has shot bears with a 12, wounded and unwounded, I can’t think of a much worse choice to actually go into the thick with intentionally.

Sure would like to see a pic of the 500 pounder though.

 

[rbutcher1234]

I’ve been offline bear hunting and guiding. What I don’t see here from anyone is reporting what it’s like to track a large, wounded boar through some of the worst briar thickets you can imagine because the hunter shot the bear square in the shoulder with a caliber/bullet insufficient to penetrate completely. Well, I just got to spend the better part of a night and then the better part of the next day doing just that. It was a new bear hunter who reverted to what they knew from deer hunting when they pulled the trigger on a 500 lb boar. The other guide and I finally found the bear late yesterday afternoon. Actually, he found us. We had called off the search and were slowly working our way out the devil’s country. Turns out the bear had been tracking us. And he was seriously pissed. Ever been charged by a wounded bear? It’ll get your attention really fast. Needless to say, I wasn’t carrying my trusty .223 with 77 gr TMKs. I had a 12 gauge shotgun with 1 oz slugs and my partner had an AR-10. We recovered the bear. Then we changed our pants. The bear’s shoulder was broken, but the bullet failed to do any damage to the underlying organs, don’t was far from a fatal shot. So by all means, if you want to go into the bears’ home and root them out of their beds carrying a .223 where the fight is likely to occur at 15 feet at the most, be my guest. I’ll sit that tracking job out. Belittle all you want. Until I see you next to me in that situation and know you’ll fight, I don’t want to hear it. In a fight like that, I need all the firepower I can get because there is no such thing as a well aimed shot. I need big holes through thick fat and bones at bad angles. Does this happen often? No, thank god. But when it does, it’s real, it’s fast, and it’s violent. See you all on the next tracking job. No wait. I probably won’t. Nevermind. Carry on.

lol a 12 gauge? I’d literally rather follow up a bear and fight it at 15 feet with a 10.3”/11.5” ar15 and 77 tmk or 62 speer gold dot more than anything…. A 12 gauge is so far down the list of things I’d do that with if I had the option.

Can you shoot your 12 gauge accurately with 0.2 splits? how long does it take you to fire 2 precise shots with the 12 gauge?

 

[Chris in TN]

I’ve been offline bear hunting and guiding. What I don’t see here from anyone is reporting what it’s like to track a large, wounded boar through some of the worst briar thickets you can imagine because the hunter shot the bear square in the shoulder with a caliber/bullet insufficient to penetrate completely. Well, I just got to spend the better part of a night and then the better part of the next day doing just that. It was a new bear hunter who reverted to what they knew from deer hunting when they pulled the trigger on a 500 lb boar. The other guide and I finally found the bear late yesterday afternoon. Actually, he found us. We had called off the search and were slowly working our way out the devil’s country. Turns out the bear had been tracking us. And he was seriously pissed. Ever been charged by a wounded bear? It’ll get your attention really fast. Needless to say, I wasn’t carrying my trusty .223 with 77 gr TMKs. I had a 12 gauge shotgun with 1 oz slugs and my partner had an AR-10. We recovered the bear. Then we changed our pants. The bear’s shoulder was broken, but the bullet failed to do any damage to the underlying organs, don’t was far from a fatal shot. So by all means, if you want to go into the bears’ home and root them out of their beds carrying a .223 where the fight is likely to occur at 15 feet at the most, be my guest. I’ll sit that tracking job out. Belittle all you want. Until I see you next to me in that situation and know you’ll fight, I don’t want to hear it. In a fight like that, I need all the firepower I can get because there is no such thing as a well aimed shot. I need big holes through thick fat and bones at bad angles. Does this happen often? No, thank god. But when it does, it’s real, it’s fast, and it’s violent. See you all on the next tracking job. No wait. I probably won’t. Nevermind. Carry on.

This was probably 28-30 years ago now - but since you offered a story, I'll offer my own.

I took a 12 gauge shotgun and crawled into the thicket that had grown up around a ditch once. A buddy of mine made the shot. Dropped one, wounded the other. It headed into this ditch and maybe an hour later we very nervously slid through the thick stuff down into the gravel bottom of the ditch. We kneeled and half-crawled maybe 30 yards before it jumped up (far too fast for me to have twitched my arm, much less raised the shotgun and sent buckshot in its direction) and took off out of the ditch and across a field. We never saw it again though I am fairly certain that it had an eventually fatal wound based on what blood we found.

Plot twist: It wasn't a bear and it wasn't shot with a 5.56. It was an adult bobcat, maybe 25 pounds, and the rifle he wounded it with was a 7mm-08 from perhaps fifty yards. IIRC my buddy was using the remington 120 grain factory load that had killed lots of deer for him in years past.

My point in telling that story isn't to belittle you - it's to say that I was *scared* of that 25 pound cat and admire your nerve in going after an adult bear. But, also, if you can wound and lose a 25 pound cat with a 7mm-08, maybe sheer raw power isn't a factor in cleanly killing animals. Otherwise we'd all need .50BMG as a minimum for black bears and crew-served stuff for Brown or coastal Grizzly bears. Maybe it really is about shot placement.

Raising a 'what if' about tracking wounded and dangerous game, doesn't negate what's being discussed here. I don't want to root out a wounded bear with any caliber, but I am certain that the guys that shoot best will be the least likely to wound them in the first place, and my money is on the guy with a smaller caliber and a pile of brass spent in practice.

Also, if I have to stop a charging animal, I don't think a 5.56 on a 500 pound bear is unreasonable. My first criteria is something short and light enough that I can actually get it aimed and fired quickly. Caliber is secondary to that. If it weighs more than six pounds it's not even an option, power be darned.

 

[Drenalin]

I’ve been offline bear hunting and guiding. What I don’t see here from anyone is reporting what it’s like to track a large, wounded boar through some of the worst briar thickets you can imagine because the hunter shot the bear square in the shoulder with a caliber/bullet insufficient to penetrate completely. Well, I just got to spend the better part of a night and then the better part of the next day doing just that. It was a new bear hunter who reverted to what they knew from deer hunting when they pulled the trigger on a 500 lb boar. The other guide and I finally found the bear late yesterday afternoon. Actually, he found us. We had called off the search and were slowly working our way out the devil’s country. Turns out the bear had been tracking us. And he was seriously pissed. Ever been charged by a wounded bear? It’ll get your attention really fast. Needless to say, I wasn’t carrying my trusty .223 with 77 gr TMKs. I had a 12 gauge shotgun with 1 oz slugs and my partner had an AR-10. We recovered the bear. Then we changed our pants. The bear’s shoulder was broken, but the bullet failed to do any damage to the underlying organs, don’t was far from a fatal shot. So by all means, if you want to go into the bears’ home and root them out of their beds carrying a .223 where the fight is likely to occur at 15 feet at the most, be my guest. I’ll sit that tracking job out. Belittle all you want. Until I see you next to me in that situation and know you’ll fight, I don’t want to hear it. In a fight like that, I need all the firepower I can get because there is no such thing as a well aimed shot. I need big holes through thick fat and bones at bad angles. Does this happen often? No, thank god. But when it does, it’s real, it’s fast, and it’s violent. See you all on the next tracking job. No wait. I probably won’t. Nevermind. Carry on.

What did your client shoot the bear with initially?

 

[Harvey_NW]

 

[atmat]

What did your client shoot the bear with initially?

 

[Brontosaurus]

I’ve been offline bear hunting and guiding. What I don’t see here from anyone is reporting what it’s like to track a large, wounded boar through some of the worst briar thickets you can imagine because the hunter shot the bear square in the shoulder with a caliber/bullet insufficient to penetrate completely. Well, I just got to spend the better part of a night and then the better part of the next day doing just that. It was a new bear hunter who reverted to what they knew from deer hunting when they pulled the trigger on a 500 lb boar. The other guide and I finally found the bear late yesterday afternoon. Actually, he found us. We had called off the search and were slowly working our way out the devil’s country. Turns out the bear had been tracking us. And he was seriously pissed. Ever been charged by a wounded bear? It’ll get your attention really fast. Needless to say, I wasn’t carrying my trusty .223 with 77 gr TMKs. I had a 12 gauge shotgun with 1 oz slugs and my partner had an AR-10. We recovered the bear. Then we changed our pants. The bear’s shoulder was broken, but the bullet failed to do any damage to the underlying organs, don’t was far from a fatal shot. So by all means, if you want to go into the bears’ home and root them out of their beds carrying a .223 where the fight is likely to occur at 15 feet at the most, be my guest. I’ll sit that tracking job out. Belittle all you want. Until I see you next to me in that situation and know you’ll fight, I don’t want to hear it. In a fight like that, I need all the firepower I can get because there is no such thing as a well aimed shot. I need big holes through thick fat and bones at bad angles. Does this happen often? No, thank god. But when it does, it’s real, it’s fast, and it’s violent. See you all on the next tracking job. No wait. I probably won’t. Nevermind. Carry on.

How bro felt saying that

 

[Thegman]

Honest question.

Would a larger caliber shot in same spot through the shoulders (not where a bears vitals are) have gotten to the vitals? Or caused a different outcome?

IME, no. Have had the same thing happen with a 308 and 30-06. Hitting bears too far forward results in a rodeo at best, a lost bear at worst.

FWIW, I'd be just fine (and have) followed up on bears with a 223. I think I'd rather have a gasser with a mag full of 77TMKs e.g., over a shotgun with slugs.