What broadhead is everyone shooting

[horseshoe]

elknut do you have any comments on the dr. ashby lethality studies and the 2 blade single bevel heads? he used many asian water buffalo kills to formulate his set-up. i liked his assessment and my recurve & compound are set-up with the grizzley 150 heads(173 with adapters) and they fly good out of the compound too.

that said, i have only deer, big and small, to use as my experience base. even with deer, sometimes 3 blade heads from a 70lb. compound do not always pass thru (non pass thru's usually mean less or no blood trail). also, placement seem to determines the amount of blood spilled, not necessarily the type of head. heart shots, i aim low at the pocket just behind the leg, kills em quick but too often with no blood trail. the good news is they usually die within sight, but the lack of blood bothers me so much i have given much thought to aiming higher and straight up the leg to get the arteries at the top of the heart and/or center punch the lungs. thoughts of shoulder bones and string jumping have deterred me from this change so far. my recurve kills have all been with the bear razor, with and w/o bleeders...great head. heads i have used...3bld = muzzy, blitz/turbo (best flier), razorhead, others...2bld = bear, mech = tried but cant be bothered (tune!).
now, trying to relate that to big elk is why i went to the heavy single bevel 2 blade. your experience thinks i should change. ?? thanks.

 

[Broken Arrow]

Horseshoe I am not experienced with elk size game but, from my experience with deer the 4 blade Magnus and bears that have removable bleeders produced the best of both worlds (penetration and blood) I think weight has much less to do with penetration than good arrow flight and multi blades that have two weak blades to get past ribs etc. I've gotten better results from them and 2 blade simmons than multi fixed blades or grizzlies. My reasoning, I've had more pass throughs. Now for spine shots the multi fixed blades have done better, Muzzy. Hard as it is to admit I lost 2 deer to a high shot that hit the spine. One broke at the point grizzly the other glanced and went straight up at contact of the spine (Razorhead). Both I believe were none fatal. My most miserable loss was a Kolpin twister (does anyone remember them?) it just fell apart at impact! We tracked him for 2 miles before we lost the blood trail. A friend found him about 1.5 miles from where we lost the trail 3 weeks later. Sold the compound and have used fixed blades since. Just feel confident with a stick bow over a compound and fixed over replaceable.

 

[horseshoe]

broken arrow, just looking to see if paul or anyone else, had knowledge of the single bevel use on western game. but, from the comments so far, i see i should go to the three blade set-up or, at the very least, get a head w/bleeders. unfortunately, i will never have the opportunity to do my own evaluations on elk being a flat lander out east so i rely on these sites a ton! thanks for the input.

 

[ElkNut1]

View attachment 1691Horseshoe, thanks for your thoughts! I certainly understand what you're asking & where your thoughts are stemming from! I have not used the single bevel 2 bladed heads to hunt with & yes I'm very familiar with Ashby's studies & have read most of them! It actually led me years back to do testing of my own, the reason why was because most felt that the heavier the arrow the more momentum & penetration was derived! To me it didn't really set well because too light is too light & too heavy is too heavy for a particular draw wt. bow. Through personal testing with the Abowyer single bevel & the Silver Flame 2 blade double edged head I found out bows of certain draw wts received their best penetration from arrows that were "the just right wt"! I tested mostly my longbow at 55#-56# with a 400grn--500grn--600grn--700grn arrow wts. I built & tuned each arrow so all head wt was within 10grns, all were in the finish head wt of aprox 200grns except for the 400grn arrow, it was aprox 150grn. My shots ranged from 10ds to 35yds & a few at 40yds, most were in the 20yd to 25yd distance.

My testing substrate was 5/16" cement board, this stuff is extremely tough to get through even tougher than an elks scapula, I layered the sheets until I got to 4 of them in thickness. At 10yd to 35yds no arrow penetrated through the 4 sheets. With 3 sheets at the 20yd range the 500grn & 600grn both penetrated but the 400grn & 700grn would not, no matter how many shots I took they never got the penetration of the 500 & 600grn. At 30yds the same held true. At 35 yds the 700grn arrow finally started catching up & at 40yds all were neck & neck in the penetration dept. The 400grn was not even in the competition after 20yds.

My conclusions after well over a hundred shots was that for the 55# longbow the 500grn arrow was easily the best penetrating one! I would say that an arrow in the 490grn to 550grn wt class would suit that draw wt. very well. This also carries over into the 500grn arrow being a much flatter shooting arrow out to 40yds over the 600grn & 700grn arrows yet not sacrificing any penetration value! This was a great test for ones confidence to shoot the right setup without sacrificing either speed or penetration. As draw wt increases so should ones arrow wt. but you don't want too heavy or you will suffer in penetration! The limbs in a bow only store so much energy at full draw, too light an arrow & energy is wasted & not maintained in the light arrow. Too heavy an arrow & again not enough energy in the limbs to deliver the umph that, that arrow could handle thus it suffers in speed greatly & is shown in ones lack of penetration. Heavier is a detriment when the arrow is not matched to the right draw wt.

What I did on the testing field has no bearing on Ashby's testing, I wasn't minimizing anything he's shared, I just wanted to know for myself what was best & what wasn't for a particular poundage drawn! With my findings in this test as well as the info I shared earlier on broadhead types for maximum blood loss on elk you can see why I choose the equipment I do. If a hunter stays in the 9grn to 10grn per lb of draw wt he will be right in there for max penetration, the head you use is a personal choice! Mine too is a personal choice, it has come from many years of elk hunting & killing. If a two blade was the better all around front runner that's what I'd use but it has not been the case so I choose multiple blade heads!

I will say that 2 holes are great in elk but I do not expect it. I have no issues at all not getting a pass through, blood loss is still great with 3 & 4 bladed heads. In nearly every case where the arrow doesn't get through the remaining shaft is sheared off & loss of blood increases. Most elk we take are not pass throughs & tracking has not been a problem! The only real purpose to use a superior bone splitting head is to plow through the shoulder blade! No hunter should ever choose that spot as the impact point. As the above studies showed only 6 1/2% of shots on 24 elk were in the shoulder/scapula. The other shots which were 93 1/2% were away from major bone, a rib is not major bone. This being the case I want a head that penetrates well, is razor sharp & punches a respectable hole to maximize blood loss on those less that perfect hits! If your arrow were to hit the paunch, liver, diaphragm or other non lethal quick killing shots what head would you want? I know I want one doing as much damage as possible thus spilling blood! A shot into the heart/lungs & the elk won't go far regardless of head used so it boils down to these other factors. These are decisions that we all have to make when choosing proper elk equipment!

Here's an elk I took right after that trad bow testing, it was a 500grn arrow with 200grn up front & happened to be a pass through! It was a 3 bladed SnufferSS head.

ElkNut1

 

[horseshoe]

thanks paul. i had read the thread on arrow weight and, just so happens, my grizzly/goldtip set-up is right at 490 +/- grains for my 55# recurve. as you see from my first post, i am constantly searching for the optimum set-ups and try out different heads all the time. and, like you, i hate sparse bloodtrails! i have learned that every head has has different limitations and my concerns with some heads and my shot placements is the lack of blood, even though the deer is dead within sight. my fascination with the single bevel is due to the bone breaking ability, spiral wound channel and the ability to twist up the guts in the event of less than desirable hits. but, it's hard to argue with success like yours! looks like i'll be trying out some new heads! thanks again....btw we have the playbook and audio...great stuff.

 

[Lost Arra]

This is really great information and I cannot imagine the time it took to accumulate it. It was probably a tough test on arrows and points. Thanks Elknut

I do have one comment and that is your arrow weight/penetration results are based solely on your 55# longbow and for that bow those results are both accurate and precise but may not translate to similar results for other 55# traditional bows. Arrow weight decisions based solely on draw weight may not be reliable between different bows because there are so many different designs and efficiencies of trad equipment. I think you would agree that a straight limbed hickory selfbow drawing 55# may be less efficient than a highly reflexed hybrid longbow that also draws 55#. The selfbow may require arrows at the low end of your arrow wt. range while a highly efficient bow may be able to effectively use arrows even heavier than 550gr. Just a thought.

Again. Great stuff Elknut!
Thanks

Do you still have the "Calling All Cows" disc? I've been hesitant to loan mine to anyone if I can't replace it.

 

[Daniel Bybee]

Got my first 6 Magnus killerbees today, all I can say is unbelievable, they are way accurate out of both my longbow and my static recurve. I have a buddy that is saving me a few beef shoulder blades and hides from a cow he needs to slaughter so im going to do some shooting and see how they do.

 

[ElkNut1]

Daniel, sweet! The killer bee is a new variation of the Stinger, did you get them in 4-blade or 2-blade? It's great to hear they are accurate! That there is what breeds confidence in a guy, he hits where he's looking! (grin) You should do very well as long as you do your part!

Horseshoe, yes there is no doubt shot placement has to do with amount of blood loss as well as razor sharp heads! Nothing takes the place of a well placed arrow! (grin) It's the errant ones that come back to haunt you, it's then you are at the mercy of the broadhead! (grin) Thanks for the kind words & good luck to you my friend!

Lost Arra, I hear you about the different weights & draw lengths. Too, some bows are faster than others at identical wts. Thing is hunters do there best to get there setups in the ballpark! We don't get to crazy about 5-10grns as if that is a breaking point especially so with trad gear! If hunters wants to lose or gain 10-15grns it's not a real issue concerning arrow wt, but when the differences go to 75grns plus that's a whole new thought process! If hunters stay in the 10grn category or just under it for north american game they will be doing very well with their given setups! The issue lies in the guys who feel that a 60# bow with 725grn arrows are that or nothing! (grin) Sure it will kill elk but they fail to realize with no testing done that they are compromising penetration & trajectory with too heavy an arrow for the wt drawn! This can come to the fore when they desire the penetration the most!

Again, it's a ballpark type formula, if someone wants more dialed in to their personal setups then they should do testing as I have, it's the only way to know where you stand with your equipment. By the way I did test 2 recurves as well, a 60# & a 58# at 28". The conclusions were the same!

As a sidenote I tested the Sapphire Hawk longbow with black carbon laminate limbs,l this is a very fast bow at mid 190's at the 59# I was just under that because I drew an inch less! Shoot an arrow not too light & not too heavy! (grin) All bows have a sweet spot! Have fun guys!

ElkNut1

 

[Daniel Bybee]

Ended up getting the 4 blade, never had a problem with the stinger 4 blade and penetration. little more blade surface for cutting

 

[G Posik]

Paul - I agree with you on your points and study. I try to stay as close to the 10 GPP as possible. I have found that is the best combo for stick bows. I also try to stay with about 20-25% FOC. I like the arrow pulling instead of pushing. I shoot a 70# long bow and my arrows are 700 gr (+/- 5gr). I have tried numerous broad heads and the ones that work best for me and my set up are the Silver Flames. I am not saying they are better than any other head on the market, just saying they work best for my set up. shooting a stickbow is like conditioning for the mountain hunt, Mental! If you have confidence in your shooting you are way ahead of the game. What ever head anyone decides to use from 2/3 or 4 blade make sure they are SHARP.

Glenn

 

[slvrslngr]

Stos and Snuffer 160's on 100 gr. steel adapters are on my arrows. For me, penetration boils down to 3 things, perfectly tuned arrows, razor sharp COC fixed blade broadheads, and shot placement in the right place (avoiding heavy bone). Arrow weight is also an important factor but is trumped by the first 3, with the an exception being on heavy and/or dangerous game, then weight becomes more important. Ultimately, confidence in your equipment is the number one consideration, so it pays to test and tweek until you're happy.

 

[Jeff Martin]

I love the RazorTrick - Best penetrating I have used. COC, Tough as nails and SHARP! SCARY SHARP !

 

[Titaniumman]

Started shooting Carbon Express F-15 fixed two years ago. 100 gr. head, have put down two whitetails and one bull elk with them. They fly straight, and I have about a dozen of them so I won't be switching for a while.

 

[Daniel Bybee]

Tested my first two killer bees on animals last night, Had to go out for a little stump shooting. Glassed up a jack rabbit about 100 yards out and snuck to about 30 and smoked him, he bled like crazy. Then driving on my way out another jack jumped in front of the truck and I made a stalk on him, 13 yard head shot and he was also done. Got a new string coming and will put it on and see what else we can do to make this bow perform. Daniel