Western Mountaineering/Feathered Friends Fails?

[Kevin_t]

"Am mature enough to not worry about any Brokeback Mountain jokes."

Oh come on now, maturity has nothing to do with it. Making jokes about people who end up in situations like that is just plain fun....

A response to the thread .. not the comment.

Frankly, I have bags of treated and untreated. Untreated all the way. EE was right to get away from it.

In WM bags .. the MicroFiber is money. Its great and is very waterproof. All of us, used them last year on hunts in northern Alaska .. and frankly it sort of dries you out at night. It is wonderful.

Jackets, I actually prefer synthetic unless it is for almost a pure sitting jacket / Belay jacket etc because in a jacket I am likely to be partially active and have less control over climate .. and also synthetic is lower profile which I find desirable.

However, regarding bags .. I'd say buy a Microfiber WM bag in desired range , like one of Badger / Kodiak / Antelope / Sequoia and move on. Dont overthink it

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I have 3 seasons in my western mountaineering badger, I’d say roughly 40 nights per season. I keep it in a few dry bags during float hunts and I’ve spent some stretches in really wet weather with it. One time I was sleeping under a tarp I’d strung between 2 trees. I had been hunting hard for the past 20 hours in cold wet weather so when I hit the sack, I was out like a bitch. The tarp had a hole which dropped on me all night as I slept through it. In the morning the water had even pooled a bit and because of the storm going on, lots of water was splashing on me as it rained all night.

None of it soaked through the microfiber shell, the bag was 100% ready to roll. Packed it up, it was dry when I pulled it out that night. I’d buy another one today if something happened to that bag.

 

[sneaky]

There's quite a bit of gear I've sold over the years, my WM Kodiak isn't going anywhere.

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[dutch_henry]

I switched to FF and WM down bags many years ago and used both all over the place, including the Brooks Range. Never had a problem, even on multi-week trips.

A wet bag sucks no matter what. But is not that hard take the extra steps keep it dry, or reasonably so.

This is in no way directed at the OP, it’s a good question, but some people would be better served by field time than consuming marketing videos.

 

[ljalberta]

This is in no way directed at the OP, it’s a good question, but some people would be better served by field time than consuming marketing videos.

This is 100% accurate.

 

[zacattack]

I have a Brooks Range hunt booked for this August and an upgrade to the old sleeping bag is the last item in my gear closet that I am looking to upgrade. I keep coming back to just buying from one of these two companies.

I am continually intrigued by the hard nosed positions taken by these two companies have taken in not adopting down treatments but throughout all of the forum stalking that I have done I have yet to hear of anyone actually having a water related problem with either of these brands. I would like to hear of anyone's experiences with a sleeping bag from one of these companies in which the bag got soaked from rain or condensation and then just wouldn't function when needed.

These two companies have sold thousands of sleeping bags over several decades with untreated down. If it were a problem the Internet would be loaded with pissed off buyers. Instead I don’t think I’ve ever seen a negative review for either company. I’ve owned both and never had problems from rainy or high humidity nights.

 

[Tim in Wa.]

I bought my first W M bag sometime around 1984(0deg.) I mostly use a Badger now.No failure of any kind yet,I did have about 3 very bad years with a 20 deg.slick bag though
Plus "made in China or Vietnam" is a deal breaker for me

 

[Lucas B]

This was never a question of whether or not these two companies made a quality product. I want to know what it takes to make this thing fail.

There still hasn't been a good answer to that. There are a few explanations of things going wrong and the bag holding up fine, but still no examples of this thing failing. This was also not intended to be a thread searching for posts to help me make the most popular and community pleasing decision.

I genuinely want to know at what point of use/abuse a WM bag breaks down.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

P

This was never a question of whether or not these two companies made a quality product. I want to know what it takes to make this thing fail.

There still hasn't been a good answer to that. There are a few explanations of things going wrong and the bag holding up fine, but still no examples of this thing failing. This was also not intended to be a thread searching for posts to help me make the most popular and community pleasing decision.

I genuinely want to know at what point of use/abuse a WM bag breaks down.

Reach out to Ryan to see about doing a sleeping bag and quilt torture test. Ideally get bags and quilts from various manufacturers; it’d be three alone from WM as they use three different fabrics. Then run them to complete failure according to some agreed upon testing process.

Once done, you’ll have an answer.

 

[ljalberta]

I genuinely want to know at what point of use/abuse a WM bag breaks down.

This is a fair and a great question. I haven't seen that point yet, but a full torture test comparing treated vs untreated down options and shell material would be fantastic. I have a couple EE treated down quilts and a WM untreated down bag at the moment. If I get some time this spring/summer I might run a few tests.

 

[Lucas B]

Thanks for volunteering, and I am eagerly awaiting your results.

Just remember, we are all counting on you. So no pressure.

 

[Matt G.]

Here is the reply I received yesterday (Sunday) from FF. It is a good answer. Again I don't forsee an issue in normal wear and time but I always worry about that emergency situation I hope is never realized.

As for the untreated down. We have decided to go that route because we have serious reservations about the long term durability of treated down compared to untreated. Down naturally has a hydrophobic layer of oils on it, these oils get stripped away in the treatment process and then they are replaced by the synthetic treatment. Another factor in our decision is more performance oriented. Our testers didn't really find a huge real world benefit of using treated down. The end result is if the down gets really wet it goes flat, it may take slightly more water to wet out the treated down but not enough to make a practical difference. We rely on our shells to provide adequate water resistance, so that in conjunction with proper campsite selection, and shelter set up, your down can stay dry. If you are wet and hop into your bag immediately, it may dampen the down slightly but it should dry fast enough, and it won't lose all of its loft. The real danger is, on an extended trip, if you get into your bag wet every night, moisture will build up and eventually wet out your bag. Best practice will always be to dry out as much as possible before going to bed, but in an emergency situation where you need to get warm, it won't kill your loft to hop in the bag wet. Hope this helps.




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[sneaky]

This was never a question of whether or not these two companies made a quality product. I want to know what it takes to make this thing fail.

There still hasn't been a good answer to that. There are a few explanations of things going wrong and the bag holding up fine, but still no examples of this thing failing. This was also not intended to be a thread searching for posts to help me make the most popular and community pleasing decision.

I genuinely want to know at what point of use/abuse a WM bag breaks down.

You literally answered your own question. Guys have ran these things for decades and over that period of time in real world use they haven't found the failure point. It really sounds as though you've already decided on what you want to buy and are just looking for validation to support your conclusion.

Why should someone go and sleep in a pool full of water just so you can say "see, I knew down would fail". Real world experience obviously isn't enough to sway you.

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[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Thanks for volunteering, and I am eagerly awaiting your results.

Just remember, we are all counting on you. So no pressure.

Cute.

I gave a legitimate response that would likely benefit many people on Rokslide.

I'll enable you one last time. Quick internet search for "sleeping bag torture test" provides some insights.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

After watching this video from Rokslide I was pretty sold on the Microfiber of the WM bags
The YF fabric from FF gotta be about as good

 

[Tim in Wa.]

This was never a question of whether or not these two companies made a quality product. I want to know what it takes to make this thing fail.

There still hasn't been a good answer to that. There are a few explanations of things going wrong and the bag holding up fine, but still no examples of this thing failing. This was also not intended to be a thread searching for posts to help me make the most popular and community pleasing decision.

I genuinely want to know at what point of use/abuse a WM bag breaks down.

Oh,well no failure yet.Only 38 years in but I don't anticipate any problems.It will be interesting to see if anyone is willing to destroy a $500.00 -$800.00 piece of equipment

 

[Spiegel]

Pretty much got the same answer form Western Mountaineering that Matt G at FF when I asked them a few years ago:

Thanks for your email. This might be a lot more info than you bargained for when you asked the question about treated down.

Currently we do not offer any bags with hydrophobic treated down because as of today we still have no compelling evidence that it provides better overall performance throughout the life of our product. We have been testing treated hydrophobic down from three of the major industry suppliers (i.e. DriDown, DownTek, and ResistDown) since December 2013 but nothing has prompted us to strongly consider using it in our products based on the collective feedback from the tests thus far. Our plan it to continue testing for long term performance comparisons but up to this point we have been underwhelmed. Comparing any of the treated down with our goose down is like comparing at the fresh powder snow in the backcountry to the slush in the parking lot of a ski resort. We currently don't have plans to use hydrophobic down in the near future.
We have done quite a bit of testing and due to multiple factors we have seen little performance difference between our down and hydrophobic down. A few of our tests have involved sending out sleeping bags and jackets that were cut in half and have one half hydrophobic one half normal down. In every case users where unsure which was which or if there was a difference at all. These samples were used for months at a time, some of them for nearly a year straight. We believe this is because of the water resistance and breathability in our shell technology.

Secondly there are numerous concerns with the fill power testing of hydrophobic down. When down is tested for fill it goes through a drying and conditioning process. This process is a standardized comparison but is not at all indicative of real world performance. Hydrophobic down artificially raises the fill count due to this drying and conditioning. For instance, we conducted a test where we got 2 samples from the same batch of down, one treated and one untreated. The supplier claimed that the batch was 850 fill. The treated came out around 860 but the untreated sample came out at ~700. In real world conditions both of these samples would perform around 700 or even lower depending on humidity. Using down that isn't as lofty as we claim it to be is misleading and leads to lower real world performance.

Third is that most down, and especially our stuff, has good natural water resistant properties. Our down is thoroughly cleaned, but the natural fats and oils from the geese stay on the plumage. Though we know these fats and oils come off over time due to laundering and washing we have seen that they last a long time, and potentially longer than a hydrophobic treatment which also washes off. This is still unsubstantiated but our testing seems to indicate this trend especially as many hydrophobic treatments need retreating after only a handful of washes.
The natural properties of high quality goose down are amazingly resistant to water without any treatment at all. We have had samples of down floating at the top of the water in a container for over three months, even stirring it occasionally. When that level of natural resistance to water is paired with a breathable laminated shell fabric such as Gore Windstopper the result is a sleeping bag that you can float on water for a half hour or more, shake it off for a few seconds and its ready to sleep in immediately. No treated down, just quality shell materials and super nice pure goose down.

 

[Fins_N_Tines]

Stone glacier has a rewarming test video. It is extreme with the guys jumping in ice cold River with full clothes on. How long would it take to get warm.? If you are soaked going into bag, would untreated down still work? If you were in back country and you slipped crossing steam ? I am in same boat looking and understanding.

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So here’s the issue with that test. Regardless if it’s treated or non-treated down if damp down gets compressed it’s going flat for sure. So what they did not show is the bottom of the bag they were laying on. Dollars to doughnuts a good portion of it was flat. No difference If you are really sweaty and lean against a tree or rock with down jacket. Even treated- down will go flat where it’s compressed.

To answer your question, I’ve used Western Mountaineering, stone glacier (treated down) and currently am using Feathered Friends. I’ve seen zero difference between treated and non- treated down in the real world and have never had my bag go flat. Couple times the foot box got wet from condensation and by night time it was dry.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I have a western mountaneering sequoia with their GWS outer fabric. I can’t even count how many times I’ve been caught in rain and snow in that bag as I very rarely use shelters. It’s never wetted out once in some insane downpours and snow storms. Zip that collar up and snuggle in! Night night.

 

[The Ri Guy]

I have used a FF Quilt for a few years in WA and never once noticed it wetting out or getting through the face fabric.