Weatherby is circling the toilet bowl

[Formidilosus]

None of those cartridges were designed to shoot heavy for caliber (high bc) bullets. The creedmore was specifically designed to shoot heavy for caliber bullets at moderate speeds.

That’s correct. It was the first mainstream cartridge that did something different with factory ammo.

This is also why they made the 6.5prc....the cm left allot of people wanting more.

That’s not the history.

 

[Formidilosus]

Again, I want to be clear: my point is that speed isn't antiquated or irrelevant, and that not enough people are talking about it as part of the realities of hunting - big game included.

What bullet and what is the MV that you shoot?

 

[Shō[t]gun]

A lot more can happen in .15 of a second than most people realize. It takes the average police officer on a range about 1.5 seconds to draw and fire their handgun, and an assailant can cover about 21 feet in that amount of time, from standing still. Google "Tueller drill" on that one. But cut both of those numbers by 90% and you still get 2.1 feet of movement in .15 seconds. A ball held out still and then just dropped will accelerate with gravity enough to cover about 4.25 inches in .15 seconds.

I'd also offer that a significant number of the wounded animals shot at "long range" were wounded specifically because flight time vs the reality of a living, moving animal were not part of the calculus of the shot - a shot that would have been fine on a paper target.

Yes, things can move in .15 seconds. But the total flight times of both rounds are over .5 seconds at 500 yards anyway. The .15sec difference is irrelevant to hitting the vitals on an unexpected move.

 

[Snowwolfe]

Weatherby is a "lefty" friendly company. I just ordered/purchased a Accumark 300 Wby and custom ordered another in 340 Wby. Both cost less than one HS Precision build.
Other rifle companies should take note of Weatherbys willingness to build rifles for us southpaws.

I don't believe any company in the world (other than custom builders) is currently building a left hand 300 Wby, 338 WM, or 340 Wby. At least Wby is making a 300 Wby and 340 Wby.

Ammo cost? If you can't afford it then don't buy the rifle.

 

[RockAndSage]

What bullet and what is the MV that you shoot?

In asking this question, it seems you're not hearing my point, even though it was quoted in reply - this isn't a pissing contest between BC, MV, flight times, "efficiency", or anything else. My point is that speed is not irrelevant to the realities of hunting and that it needs to be part of the discussion.

That's all.

 

[Formidilosus]

In asking this question, it seems you're not hearing my point, even though it was quoted in reply - this isn't a pissing contest between BC, MV, flight times, "efficiency", or anything else. My point is that speed is not irrelevant to the realities of hunting and that it needs to be part of the discussion.

That's all.

Can you point out or qoute where anyone said speed didn’t matter?

 

[RockAndSage]

Can you point out or qoute where anyone said speed didn’t matter?

Yes, things can move in .15 seconds. But the total flight times of both rounds are over .5 seconds at 500 yards anyway. The .15sec difference is irrelevant to hitting the vitals on an unexpected move.

There was a time when the speed kills and flat shooting mantra made sense. It made up for error. But with rangefinders, clicks and dope cuttters, it’s all irrelevant now.

Those are a couple, and part of why I made my point the way I did.

Speed matters, but whether it makes a difference is circumstantial to the shooter, the cartridge, the bullet, the hunt conditions, the game animal, etc, etc. It does bring advantages to the realities of hunting - until it's taken too far. But it still needs to be part of the discussion. It is not irrelevant.

 

[Formidilosus]

Those are a couple, and part of why I made my point the way I did.

Speed matters, but whether it makes a difference is circumstantial to the shooter, the cartridge, the bullet, the hunt conditions, the game animal, etc, etc. It does bring advantages to the realities of hunting - until it's taken too far. But it still needs to be part of the discussion. It is not irrelevant.

No one said it is irrelevant. That’s you reading what you want to out of it.

The “difference” of 0.15 sec TOF on a game animal taking a step at the exact moment the firing pin hits, is functional irrelevant. And that’s about the worst difference you could come up with. The differences between a 300 Weatherby and a 6.5cm at 500 yards is about .088 seconds- that is absolutely not observable- about an inch or so for a walking deer if my math is correct.
It’s a point that makes up so little of the total percentage of factors that goes into a shot, that when you state that it makes a large, meaningful or noticeable difference, it calls into question the experience that you would had to have to see it.
Hence, my question of what bullet and what MV you use? Because to see that .15sec TOF amount to anything on game animals one would need to shoot hundreds, if not thousands of game animals at 500 yards that took a step at the exact moment the firing pin fell, then they would need to recognize that it happened, and to catalog it, and gather the data over all of those animals then lay it all out to see a trend.

Now, I can’t say that you or someone else doesn’t have that body of evidence required to state that, however I have killed those numbers of animals, and in all of those probably on one hand could be counted the amount of animals that took a step as the trigger broke past 300 yards.

 

[SDHNTR]

I said it was irrelevant. And if you want to take a very literal interpretation of what I said, fine. I still stand by it. From a marketing standpoint, which was specifically what I was pointing out, Weatherby’s schtick was and is, irrelevant.

 

[RockAndSage]

No one said it is irrelevant. That’s you reading what you want to out of it.

The “difference” of 0.15 sec TOF on a game animal taking a step at the exact moment the firing pin hits, is functional irrelevant. And that’s about the worst difference you could come up with. The differences between a 300 Weatherby and a 6.5cm at 500 yards is about .088 seconds- that is absolutely not observable- about an inch or so for a walking deer if my math is correct.
It’s a point that makes up so little of the total percentage of factors that goes into a shot, that when you state that it makes a large, meaningful or noticeable difference, it calls into question the experience that you would had to have to see it.
Hence, my question of what bullet and what MV you use? Because to see that .15sec TOF amount to anything on game animals one would need to shoot hundreds, if not thousands of game animals at 500 yards that took a step at the exact moment the firing pin fell, then they would need to recognize that it happened, and to catalog it, and gather the data over all of those animals then lay it all out to see a trend.

Now, I can’t say that you or someone else doesn’t have that body of evidence required to state that, however I have killed those numbers of animals, and in all of those probably on one hand could be counted the amount of animals that took a step as the trigger broke past 300 yards.

You know man, when I offer two quotes that literally use the word "irrelevant", and you turn around and state that "No one said it is irrelevant", and turn around yet again and call it "functional irrelevant" yourself, it's hard to conclude that you're actually in this for a fair consideration and exchange of information and perspective. So I'm going to check out of this convo, and leave you with this:

Everything I've shared has been about taking a balanced approach. There's far more than one aspect than TOF that speed plays a role in, and again, yes, that matters too - otherwise .308 would still be the preferred sniper round, and all the dedicated coyote hunters would be running 6.5CM or .22 Hornet. Speed can also be way overdone, which is a big part of why a Weatherby isn't in every gunsafe.

If you actually wanted to search out the circumstances where speed makes a difference on a hit or not, or a kill or not, or how it can play into what shots you can actually take in the realities of a hunt, you could figure it out. It's all there for you.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

Lets nip this in the butt before confusion sets in. The bullet impact velocity effect of speed is a massive factor for terminal performance, the TOF effect of a faster bullet is statistically irrelevant when I comes to killing animals within the velocity range of standard centerfire cartridges. Basically the only argument you are making is that a hyper velocity cartridge is superior because it allows a tiny bit of animal movement at precisely .15 seconds before impact. If the animal moves before that then both cartridges miss vitals anyway, the animal moves after that and they both kill the same.

 

[Carl Ervine]

I have a 340 and it does everything it needs to do. They have my business.

 

[AkRyan]

I have a 340 and it does everything it needs to do. They have my business.

The question is would you go buy that 340 over another rifle is a more readily available cartridge by another manufacturer. You owning the rifle kinda forces you to support them.

 

[Nomosendero]

But it might be why he bought it!

 

[JohnJohnson]

I got a Model 307 and its a shooter. Don't really know how they're circling the toilet bowl, seems more like a personal opinion than fact. Remington was a company that everyone could actually see circling the toilet bowl.

I can't speak for others opinions but for me personally it's more that they're not evolving with where (I believe) the market is headed. I think magnum-mania is winding down in the US, slowly. I could be dead wrong on that but those are just my feelings on where the market is going. If Weatherby remains obsessed with shitkicking overbore magnums I think they will very slowly fade away. It's just a function of the consumers slowly becoming more educated on the subject and realizing most of what they make is unnecessary.

 

[JohnJohnson]

FIFY

I'd say Rokslide is a decent representation of where the hunting community will be heading 5 years from now. Or at least a decent chunk of it. At the end of the day the conclusions reached on here regarding big magnums are a pretty logical thing to reach when you get more information. The magnum-mania just thrives on lack of information and as the hunting influencers (as much as people hate them here) are moving to smaller cartridges, people will start to wake up more. An example of that is suppressors.

 

[idig4au]

will always be a supporter of and loyal to weatherby, especially the mark V lineup. Might be dated with some of the new offerings on the market, but weatherby calibers still have their place and have been at the forefront in performance for decades. My memories hunting with them are some of my fondest and that’s more important than anything else.

 

[gerry35]

I got a Model 307 and its a shooter. Don't really know how they're circling the toilet bowl, seems more like a personal opinion than fact. Remington was a company that everyone could actually see circling the toilet bowl.

Weatherby has doubled in size since moving to Wyoming so you're right they are doing very well. They have been adapting and are obviously doing it right. In a recent interview I posted up Adam said their biggest sellers are rounds like the 6.5 Creedmoor. Thankfully the new Remington guns are also doing well now with good ownership finally.

 

[JBradley500]

Although I don't totally agree with the philosophy, I can't imagine big magnums not selling in America. There's always going to be people looking to buy the biggest cartridge to impress their friends.

 

[Nomosendero]

I can't speak for others opinions but for me personally it's more that they're not evolving with where (I believe) the market is headed. I think magnum-mania is winding down in the US, slowly. I could be dead wrong on that but those are just my feelings on where the market is going. If Weatherby remains obsessed with shitkicking overbore magnums I think they will very slowly fade away. It's just a function of the consumers slowly becoming more educated on the subject and realizing most of what they make is unnecessary.

Yea except Weatherby is selling more rifles in std. calibers now than ever before.
As Gerry has stated, doubling growth in the last few years is quite a feat. Has any other gun company done that in the same timeframe ?

Alot of companies would love to "circle the toilet bowl" in the same fashion.
This is a fun thread!