Waterproof down ! What do you know about it ?

[Shrek]

There have been several threads that have discussed waterproof down but all within the charged atmosphere of brand loyalty and dislike. I'm interested in really understanding it and its properties. Things I think I know right now are that it resist water and dries faster when it does get wet. The treatments claim to last anywhere from 3 to 20 washings. Co2 cleaning would make it last the longest and down specific soap is what the claimed durability is rated with. The treatment makes the down perform at a higher fill power rating.
So the questions I can think of right away are . Does waterproof down really make a big difference in actual field use ? Does it retain its insulating properties in really wet conditions ? Will the treatment really hold up or will it fade quickly like the dwr on clothing that gets dirty and used hard ? How are the fill power ratings being done , before or after treatment ?
Even if the down looses fill power as the treatment fades it still has value while it sustains its performance abilities and may be the bomb for some applications. What are those real world applications and not just the marketing application ?
We've heard some say their jackets have lost insulating properties but do those who have time with waterproof down feel it really made a difference or would regular down and water resistant fabic been almost as good ?

So please post what you know or your experience without dising or pumping any brands. Post any questions you have as I'm not very certain I'm even asking the right questions.
I'll be honest about my current view and that is I'm skeptical of waterproof down and this last week I put my money on regular down in a top brand sleeping bag because it was a known performer.

 

[Travis1984]

I have the KUIU super down, used for one season, and it has performed well.

I don't have anything to compare it too

 

[Shrek]

Do you think the waterproofing made a difference or would untreated down have worked as well ?

 

[Jimbob]

I have a montbell uL parka and a few down sleeping bags, all with regular untreated down. I know for a fact that it has performed just as well as any treated down. I know this because my down stuff has never got wet and list its loft, therefore i would not have seen any benefit with treated down.

I know I am being a bit funny here but its honest. I would not pay extra for treated down because I take care not to get my down wet in the first place.

 

[boom]

I'm not gonna stand in a rainstorm wearing my superdown. I don't think it was designed for that. I think it can handle my body moisture and wilderness dampness. I'll treat it like my regular down. The jacket is part of my system.

 

[colonel00]

For me, my intent is to have treated down as an insurance policy. I'm not going to wear it exposed in a rain storm as others have said. I just like it for that "what if" situation where my rain gear soaks through or I get caught in a spontaneous shower without warning. In my mind, it will always be treated as if it was regular down.

 

[Travis1984]

I'm not gonna stand in a rainstorm wearing my superdown. I don't think it was designed for that. I think it can handle my body moisture and wilderness dampness. I'll treat it like my regular down. The jacket is part of my system.

This.

 

[Bambistew]

I know someone did a write up on a treated down coat... Maybe Yellowknife? Consensus was it worked well, until about the second day of high humidity, then it started to lose loft and got saturated eventually. Primaloft for me in a coat, but I'm cool with an untreated down sleeping bag.

 

[kodiakfly]

I know someone did a write up on a treated down coat... Maybe Yellowknife? Consensus was it worked well, until about the second day of high humidity, then it started to lose loft and got saturated eventually. Primaloft for me in a coat, but I'm cool with an untreated down sleeping bag.

And this is why I use synthetic on everything here. I think it was Luke or Aron that vouched for Down's use in moist conditions, and they know better than I do. But damned if I don't live in a rainforest and just can't think I'm better off in a survival situation in a foggy rainstorm with synthetic. And I do own a couple down bags and coats. I just don't use them here.

 

[jjentringer3921]

I went swimming in my superdown puffy from kuiu a couple weeks ago after sinking a boat. I was a little worried about the coat, let it air dry, and it looks and feels(warmth) exactly as it did before which I'm really excited about. This still doesn't mean I'll be swimming in it or washing it anytime soon if I don't have to.

 

[boom]

I went swimming in my superdown puffy from kuiu a couple weeks ago after sinking a boat. I was a little worried about the coat, let it air dry, and it looks and feels(warmth) exactly as it did before which I'm really excited about. This still doesn't mean I'll be swimming in it or washing it anytime soon if I don't have to.

what happened to the boat? big boat? yeoza!


back on topic; when i was sleeping bag shopping, i called Feathered Friends (i think it was them, i called a lot of folks) to discuss. i asked about wet down. the man said, "well, if you arent smart enough to keep down dry, i cant help you"..hahhaha..it was pretty funny. i love it when a person wields sarcasm..hah.

i dig my superdown. wish i got the gray one so i could wear it around.

 

[Yellowknife]

I know someone did a write up on a treated down coat... Maybe Yellowknife? Consensus was it worked well, until about the second day of high humidity, then it started to lose loft and got saturated eventually. Primaloft for me in a coat, but I'm cool with an untreated down sleeping bag.

Yeah, that was me.

http://www.rokslide.com/forums/show...wn-tested-to-failure&highlight=tested+failure

Day 3 it settled down into a steady cold rain that didn't quit. If you've ever hunted in the rain for days in a row, you know that EVERYTHING eventually gets wet. Water runs down your sleeves when you glass, gets down your neck, soaks the hem of your jacket when you bend over, and of course you get to sweat in raingear all day. Despite babying it to the best of my abilities, this kind of non-stop sogginess was the death of even the waterproof down, and by the end of the day sleeves and fringes of the jacket were soaked and useless. Although the body still had some loft, the jacket had lost a large percentage of it's insulation capabilities. If I had been relying on this as a critical layer, I would have been screwed at this point.

Yk

Been wearing that down jacket pretty much daily all winter. For winter use, it acts exactly like regular down, and I haven't seen any clumping issues. I'm perfectly happy with it in dry to moderately damp conditions. It's "water resistant" to a noticeable degree, and tolerated humidity very well indeed, but when it does finally get soaked, it's just like regular down in that it will retain 0% of it's warmth at that point. I'll probably have it in my day pack quite a bit this summer, just because it takes up no space at all and weighs nothing to bring. For extended Alaska trips, it will stay at home.

SJ-AK had a similar experience:

I am reviving this thread as I now have recently had the same experience as YK. I just got back from a 10 day hunt in which I wore my Superdown under my rain gear for 11 hours in very wet conditions. The sleeves did soak through and provide little to no insulation. I was able to dry it out that evening hanging in an unheated tent. Not a huge issue, but I felt I should share my experience as I defended the Superdown in previous posts.

Treated down in a sleeping bag seems like a great idea, and at some point I'll probably go that way. I'll also be looking for treated down in jackets in the future, although it won't be a deal breaker one way or the other in that application.

Yk

 

[orionsbrother]

Yellowknife, I wanted to thank you for your input as well. I'm looking at trying the treated down in a quilt. One thing that I'm curious about is whether or not washings will strip the down of the treatment, to what degree and how quickly. It seems logical that emulsifying agents could negatively impact the treatment. If you end up washing your jacket to remove skin oils, please post if you notice any difference in the water resistance. Thanks.

 

[Yellowknife]

Yellowknife, I wanted to thank you for your input as well. I'm looking at trying the treated down in a quilt. One thing that I'm curious about is whether or not washings will strip the down of the treatment, to what degree and how quickly. It seems logical that emulsifying agents could negatively impact the treatment. If you end up washing your jacket to remove skin oils, please post if you notice any difference in the water resistance. Thanks.

Since the one waterproof jacket I own is used primarily as a mid-layer, it has stayed pretty clean and I have yet to wash it. Hopefully somebody else with more experience can contribute to that aspect.

Yk

 

[orionsbrother]

Yellowknife - For the team and the advancement of human knowledge, sweat more, get greasier!

I assumed you wouldn't be sporting it as a base layer and purposely getting lathered up trying to trash it. I'm just casting about looking for any practical anecdotal experience. Not much out there yet.

 

[Yellowknife]

Yellowknife - For the team and the advancement of human knowledge, sweat more, get greasier!

Well now that you mention it...

I just recalled that my son has a Marmot 650FP down jacket that uses "Down Defender" technology. You should see the unholy abuse that boy puts his jacket through! That poor thing sees more abuse in an average week than most jackets will see in a year. Oil, dirt, food, dog slobber, mud, rocks... you name it. Most of use don't spend quite as much time rolling on the ground as your average adventure seeking 4 yr old. It's been washed a couple of times this winter, and the shell is patched a few places and looks like something the dog drug in.

So far, it's still just as puffy as new. No noticeable clumping, and while I've got no way of quantitatively measuring the remaining water resistance, but it's still keeping him warm in sloppy spring snow every day.

So yeah... even if the coating wears off, it's still going to be a solid down garment (or bag/quilt). Just how often are you going to wash a quilt anyway?

Yk

 

[orionsbrother]

" I just recalled that my son has a Marmot 650FP down jacket that uses "Down Defender" technology. You should see the unholy abuse that boy puts his jacket through! That poor thing sees more abuse in an average week than most jackets will see in a year. Oil, dirt, food, dog slobber, mud, rocks... you name it. Most of use don't spend quite as much time rolling on the ground as your average adventure seeking 4 yr old. It's been washed a couple of times this winter, and the shell is patched a few places and looks like something the dog drug in. "

I've got a few of my own. What they can do to the interior of a truck is amazing. In no time at all, it looks like two homeless guys and a raccoon have been living in it for months! I should have thought about asking someone if treated down was being used in kid's gear. That's quality experimentation right there. Forget throwing the packs off a dang cliff in the KUIU thread, give 'em to my kids. That'll really test durability.

Tell your son that I owe him a beer. If the wife isn't successful in her attempts to kill me, I'll pay up in 2031. Good to hear that you are not seeing any clumping. That was mentioned as a possible problem.

I'm not thinking that a quilt will get frequent washings, but I tend to be a warm sleeper and I've been known to get grungy after a bit, so I'm contemplating using a liner especially for longer trips to keep it cleaner and last longer. And I'm still debating whether or not to spend the extra dough for the treated down. I'm very cynical when it comes to marketing.

Can't make that purchase for another month or two, so I get to keep thinking about it.

 

[Rucker61]

Wasn't Waterproof Down a book about rabbits?

 

[littlebuf]

doesn't down come off of water foul? do you think they know that if they get wet there sure to die in the wilderness?

 

[HurricaneHuge]

Waterfowl continuously produce their own water proofing in the form of oils and have different sets of feathers to protect the insulation layers.