Waterfowl Hunters!

[KurtR]

I believe the view in Pintail biology is that the population is being treated as a continental population, not simply by flyway. Total numbers are in free fall and have been. I hate to say it, but pintail are just I’ll suited to the modern world and there is no way to teach them to differentiate between wheat stubble and prairie grass. It looks the same to them…until a tractor runs a plough over their nest. It’s just their instinct as a long neck duck that wants that exact grass height as they can peek over it and see predators. Unfortunately, that height is Ag stubble.

Nest success rates for pintail is in the single digits…


There is no great fix for that. No Till farming practices combined with edge to edge planting just plain destroys pintails.


I hate it as I love shooting pintails, but I believe the days of hunting them are about over.

They aren’t unique in that regard…our grandfathers likely talked about quail and canvasbacks the same way.

Waterfowl hunting is in bad shape. I grew up in AR, chasing ducks in the timber. I haven’t killed a duck in the woods in years…they are just not there.

I guess that depends on where your at. 30 years ago we could shoot one goose a day now it’s 15 early season and 8 all year. Snow geese all time high. We see more mallards now than ever. What has changed it winter and food that keeps birds farther north longer. It’s been below zero for the last 2 weeks and we still have geese coming from North Dakota.

 

[QuackAttack]

It’s clear that birds are migrating later and shorter. SD has tons of birds hanging out longer. LA isn’t getting birds in any substance until very late.

No till Ag…warmer weather…more habitat for ducks…it keeps them north.

 

[Mike76]

QuackAttack
Thank you sir for your reply.
On the Pacific flyway these issues you speak about are not happening. We have more sprig then we have ever had. Predation is definitely a huge huge issue for all our game Birds. HUGE! The Pacific fly way numbers are up way up and the birds are flourishing well from Alaska to Calif Refuges and south into Mexico.
The Mississippi flyway has been going down hill for some time and yes exactly from what your saying.
My point in all this is why we are not seeing the DU and funds for local. People like myself and you are not fighting hard enough to make sure these populations have a chance to rebound.. The Fish and wildlife are purchasing more and more Property as DU used to and so why cant they take the bull by the horns sorta speak and work with farmers and do more to work with the issues?
These agency's are subsidized and where does this money go??? When it hits the General fund it gets used up for whom knows what. The places it should go is back into the real places the money was allocated for, This is the problem! where does the Money get allocated for? Instead of where those dollars are used and for what. Think about this! It is out of all our pockets oso why should we not know or have a voice where it should go?
DU has done a great job over the decades purchasing property and working with land owners for these exact reasons. But over the last quite a few years your not hearing a lot about the DU. At one time there were DU meetings, Letters, fund raisers, and of coarse the DU Banquets. We here just don't hear much anymore and wonder why?
Your point is very well Taken, But there is no reason that the issues we are chatting about can not be fixed. This is just not an overnite ordeal with the Sprig Population as it has been going on for some time until it has gotten so bad in some flyways that now its going to take a lot of work to see it come back. But if they continue to talk about it about how bad it is we will continue to watch it go away.
Thank You sir and Yes sir what you right is true so let whom ever know the interest you and others have and lets get it done.. Thank you again Hunter 73

I believe the view in Pintail biology is that the population is being treated as a continental population, not simply by flyway. Total numbers are in free fall and have been. I hate to say it, but pintail are just I’ll suited to the modern world and there is no way to teach them to differentiate between wheat stubble and prairie grass. It looks the same to them…until a tractor runs a plough over their nest. It’s just their instinct as a long neck duck that wants that exact grass height as they can peek over it and see predators. Unfortunately, that height is Ag stubble.

Nest success rates for pintail is in the single digits…


There is no great fix for that. No Till farming practices combined with edge to edge planting just plain destroys pintails.


I hate it as I love shooting pintails, but I believe the days of hunting them are about over.

They aren’t unique in that regard…our grandfathers likely talked about quail and canvasbacks the same way.

Waterfowl hunting is in bad shape. I grew up in AR, chasing ducks in the timber. I haven’t killed a duck in the woods in years…they are just not there.

I definitely see your point and frustration.
Once again our flyways is not seeing these same numbers as are the Mississippi flyways. These birds nest in different areas along these flyways. If we were under the same issues with the single digits we would not be seeing the Birds we see here. But because the Mississippi flyway is having these huge issues we are under the same guide lines as that flyway. With that I believe this is wrong.
We have 2 BIOs one local and the other is at the Big Boys Office as I call it and have been fighting for a more liberal season on Sprig as they two hunt as much as I probably more in to days world.
They indicate the same as what I'm speaking that we are under the federal water fowl conservation agency guide lines and we speak up and basically whats good for the Goose is good for the Gander.
Meaning if I get a speeding ticket so should everyone else sorta speak. This is the issue. It is a sad ordeal that that flyway is under such issues but why should other flyways. Our flyways should be doing what needs to be done to help each other solve these issues. It has happened to other migratory Birds.. Take the aleutian Goose fore instance. It was at extinction at one time and now there is a 25 bird limit on them as they are destroying the farmers fields. Arctic fox was the culprit along with other factors they went in and the job and brought them back. so it can happen but it takes everyone to help with the issues.
Thanks Hunter73

 

[Mike76]

We see the same things here Birds numbers are up big time. the geese Population is huge as is the ducks.
pintail included. once again we are not seeing the issues the central flyways are seeing but we are under the same general regulation and that is wrong

 

[Mike76]

Here is an interesting one for you. An out fitter whom I was chatting with a few days ago indicated he would get back to me after he gets back from a timered hunt in AR. with what you are saying it will be interesting to see how his hunt goes. There hunting team are big into elk and bucks the utube hosts them under Bornandraisedoutfitters.com Born and raised outfitters utube vidio's take a look see in a week or so as Im sure the show will show the AR timbered hun in AR.

 

[QuackAttack]

We see the same things here Birds numbers are up big time. the geese Population is huge as is the ducks.
pintail included. once again we are not seeing the issues the central flyways are seeing but we are under the same general regulation and that is wrong

Flyways are not borders. The population is migratory and band recovery shows that there are no your/my ducks…they are all one population and will cross flyways if pressed by weather or habitat.

They have to be managed federally as they are a continental migrating bird. It’s great that CA has tons of species X…but that’s not going to fix the totals for the overall population.

If your friends are hunting one of the big money clubs, they will do well as planting corn in the woods and artificially flooding it to exactly 6 inches will congregate the few ducks that are there. It’s a fun place at the $$$ clubs.

 

[KurtR]

Interesting study its a few years dated but looking at numbers seems more pintails are banded in the central fly way than the pacific.

http://www.pintailactiongroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Final-Report-PDF.pdf

 

[Mike76]

Flyways are not borders. The population is migratory and band recovery shows that there are no your/my ducks…they are all one population and will cross flyways if pressed by weather or habitat.

They have to be managed federally as they are a continental migrating bird. It’s great that CA has tons of species X…but that’s not going to fix the totals for the overall population.

If your friends are hunting one of the big money clubs, they will do well as planting corn in the woods and artificially flooding it to exactly 6 inches will congregate the few ducks that are there. It’s a fun place at the $$$ clubs.

QuackAttack
Fly ways are not boders But they should be. You saying that these Pacific birds are joining the Central and Mississippi Flyways. If this was the issue You would have more Sprig then you could count. What is happening on this flyway well exceeds the issued the Mississippi Flyway is having and others are having.
I understand there is no your bird, my bird. But just maybe until the Pacific Fly ways has any issues then just maybe there should be a little more liberal bag limit on that individual Bird.
Yes now and again these bird migrate into other flyways and those counts are so minimal it has no bearing on the issue at hand. You said it< the Canadian ag issue is a huge reason on why that problem is there because the birds migrating on the Pacific Fly way are NOT having those same issues.
Lets take the Pacific and And Atlantic Brant. One on the East Coast the other on the west coast Now I have shot Atlantics on the West coast, 3 to be exact. It doesn't mean a few birds don't stumble on to other migratory fly ways they do but not in any number that will make any huge difference on populations, We need to fix the Problem and that's is with the Nesting problems they are having. The Predator problems they are having and what other issues that may be causing these declines to continue
Me Nor any of my friends hunt any big clubs but pot holes , bays ,lakes as maybe yourself. When I chat about the Pacific flyway it is from Alaska, Washington State, Oregon where i preside, and Calif, and Mexico. There are big clubs all over the US and they can plant all the corn they want flood all the fields they want But! They still will not get the sprig count up. That's not the issue or the problem. It is the numbers dwindling in the nesting grounds and poor, extremely poor, numbers of juveniles. oh well we have ran this issue down the drain and I hope they do something to get this wonderful bird back to a number as it once was. They have to step up and not just keep looking at it and indicate there is a problem and then not doing a thing about it. there are things that can be done.
Thanks for your reply Quackattack... Hunter 73

 

[KurtR]

QuackAttack
Fly ways are not boders But they should be. You saying that these Pacific birds are joining the Central and Mississippi Flyways. If this was the issue You would have more Sprig then you could count. What is happening on this flyway well exceeds the issued the Mississippi Flyway is having and others are having.
I understand there is no your bird, my bird. But just maybe until the Pacific Fly ways has any issues then just maybe there should be a little more liberal bag limit on that individual Bird.
Yes now and again these bird migrate into other flyways and those counts are so minimal it has no bearing on the issue at hand. You said it< the Canadian ag issue is a huge reason on why that problem is there because the birds migrating on the Pacific Fly way are NOT having those same issues.
Lets take the Pacific and And Atlantic Brant. One on the East Coast the other on the west coast Now I have shot Atlantics on the West coast, 3 to be exact. It doesn't mean a few birds don't stumble on to other migratory fly ways they do but not in any number that will make any huge difference on populations, We need to fix the Problem and that's is with the Nesting problems they are having. The Predator problems they are having and what other issues that may be causing these declines to continue
Me Nor any of my friends hunt any big clubs but pot holes , bays ,lakes as maybe yourself. When I chat about the Pacific flyway it is from Alaska, Washington State, Oregon where i preside, and Calif, and Mexico. There are big clubs all over the US and they can plant all the corn they want flood all the fields they want But! They still will not get the sprig count up. That's not the issue or the problem. It is the numbers dwindling in the nesting grounds and poor, extremely poor, numbers of juveniles. oh well we have ran this issue down the drain and I hope they do something to get this wonderful bird back to a number as it once was. They have to step up and not just keep looking at it and indicate there is a problem and then not doing a thing about it. there are things that can be done.
Thanks for your reply Quackattack... Hunter 73

did you look at the report that i posted. It answers alot of your questions and interesting the most pintails are in the central fly way. Till you get Canada to change up there nesting will never improve . This year with water in short supply dont be looking for any increase in pintails as they had a dismal breeding year. We dont get water i could see the limits cut across the board on all ducks

Just a short snip

Although the pintail remains the most abundant duck in the Pacific Flyway, their numbers are only 25% of levels recorded in the 1970s

 

[Mike76]

did you look at the report that i posted. It answers alot of your questions and interesting the most pintails are in the central fly way. Till you get Canada to change up there nesting will never improve . This year with water in short supply dont be looking for any increase in pintails as they had a dismal breeding year. We dont get water i could see the limits cut across the board on all ducks

Just a short snip

Although the pintail remains the most abundant duck in the Pacific Flyway, their numbers are only 25% of levels recorded in the 1970s

KurtR
Levels are down since the 1970s, But! that feed is off a bunch. Chatting with the Bio's in Izenbbec Bay Alaska they are seeing such an increase in numbers through out all the chains that it is hard to believe we are only at 25 % on this flyway since 1970. We believe a lot of hype put out there so that the argument from flyway to flyway doesn't get exploded with issues. Along with Change from one flyway to the next because as you mentioned its not my flyway or your flyway and its an international issue. Yes it is and international issue for that central flyway, Mississippi flyway if needed. Take care of the issue at hand and like we all say if it doesn't need fixing, then don't fix it, which is the difference in our sprig pop in different flyways.
I moved to Oregon in 1971 right after I mustered out of the military. The sprig Oh my gawd it was hard Believing the numbers back then. The limit was 7 not many hunting around here and it was great shots when ever we went out.
NOW Right Now! We are seeing those numbers here. we have so many Sprig it is unbelievable. Over Deeks you have dozens of flocks in the deeks before we fire a shot. The numbers are actually huge. So buying in on a report like what your seeing to me and many, many other hunters up and down our flyways including the Bios whom hunt everyday they have off here locally.
They in Alaska are shooting 7 Ducks Sprig included on this end of the alaska chain. Now if those numbers are down to 25% of levels in the 70s where these birds are nesting why in the world would they allow a 7 bird limit on Sprig?? This makes no sense at all. NON!!
If they don't want us to shoot something there are always reasons why they can take away. from our great Salmon fisheries to our Bucks, Elk, Ducks, But not our Geese as the snows, specs, canadians, and the Aleutian come back is staggering. 25 birds a day when they were on the endangered species list a few yrs back. Maybe a lot of your food source is going to the huge geese population??? just maybe?? along with the Canadian farm issues you speak about. Then you have the fox issues and other issues.
Yes I see that flyway as being an issue and if its never fixed then we will not see any increases and one more thing they don't have to worry about. You know as well as I.. Once these agencies take away we never see them back anyway but that does not mean we cant speak out about the issues at hand.. And it is a huge issue even if the central flyways let this issue slide away..
If the people whom don't believe the number this flyway has they should take a trip and really see the non issues we have. I'm one whom doesn't believe a thing the Dept of fish and wildlife has to say about anything' I believe most are over educated idiots whom sit behind a desk and know nothing about whats actually in the field.
If it were there way we would not be hunting and all the fish and game would be there for us to watch. Its the Green way of thinking..
Thank You for all your replies but it seems we don't see the same issues from flyway to flyway and that is ok as we can at least chat about it and maybe someone else can read into it all.. Thanks again Quackattack
Hunter73

 

[QuackAttack]

AK has a lot of idiotic game laws…go look at the “subsistence hunts” if you want to see unethical and things that would be multiple felonies anywhere else.

 

[mwebs]

This thread is about one guy, that hunts one area that pintail like and wants to equate that to an entire flyway… Hilarious

 

[Mike76]

This thread is about one guy, that hunts one area that pintail like and wants to equate that to an entire flyway… Hilarious

 

[Mike76]

Mwebs
What is Hilarious is a statement just written by yourself.
About one guy where pintail like to be??? It is the Pacific FLYWAY Sir and it matters not what AK does they were indicating to me the numbers nesting along that breeding grounds.
Before you speak out and indicate an individual, that its all about him.
This is hundreds or maybe thousands whom have been trying for some time to get justification about the number from different flyways which those Pintains (Sprig to be exact) are breeding and the numbers within.
The justification is that the low breeding grounds in different flyways are in the toilet sorta speak. But in other breeding grounds within those flyways they are not having the same problems. Do you now have the understanding of what the post is trying to say?????? Its not just about myself sir, its about many, many duck hunters including our local Bio's and state Bio whom have tried to make any sense of the situation.
I'm very happy shooting my Limit of Mallard and 1 Bull Sprig when I scull or otherwise.
But it sure would be nice to shoot a couple more sprig as it is the most dominate bird in the Pacific North West.
So Sad to see when someone ads a reply the way you have . It is like your blaming one individual and the only one place that pintain like to be.. That is such a laughing matter.
I have been hunting these Birds for some 60 years and damn sure know what I'm talking about.
I'd like to see my kids and grandkids and great grand kids have just a touch of the hunting I have had.
So I will speak in any way to see thing get a little better, Even just a little better.
The way things are going it wont be long we probably wont have a limit at all.
I hate the fact that each and every year out license and tags, stamps go up and we see less and less. Once its gone you tell me if you see them ever come back.
Maybe where you live but not here. So Very sorry if you didn't get what the article was all about.
Maybe we could of chatted, so that you could understand where I was at on the POST!!
Anyway sir good Hunting, Good shooting, where the Sprig don't like to be, obviously.
Hunter 73

 

[Mike76]

AK has a lot of idiotic game laws…go look at the “subsistence hunts” if you want to see unethical and things that would be multiple felonies anywhere else.

Quack
Your so right about AK and the there way of doing things pertaining to waterfowl limits.
They are definitely there own state and really dont give a ---- about the lower 48.
I wouldn't mind at all if each state ran themselves individually. It might justifie many things in Hunting and other wise.
In most cases each state works within there state except government, or federally ran agencies.
But your reply is well taken.
Not as happy with the individual whom wrote its about one guy and a place where pintail (Srig) like to be.
It is more about what is within this flyway and not so good in others. This is where we get back to states within there flyways making some decisions beside what a federal agency has predicted.
Ak at one end and Mexico at the other end!
good hunting sir Hunter 73

 

[kwackkillncrew]

AK has a lot of idiotic game laws…go look at the “subsistence hunts” if you want to see unethical and things that would be multiple felonies anywhere else.

please enlighten us on all these laws.

first and foremost, have you actually been up to the tundra and talked with the natives? Have you seen how particular they are when harvesting animals/eggs.

have you actually seen on a map how many villages there are compared the the amount of land on the north slope? its quite laughable if you think that villagers shooting a few ducks/geese during the spring hunt and harvesting some eggs is going to put any type of dent in a population. when you look at how much breeding habitat is actually up on the north slope.

You guys realize that California shoots more pintails in one day then is harvested in alaska all year. (info coming from a waterfowl bio up here in ak)

I have spent alot of time in the villages for work and 95% of the people are very particular on what and when they harvest it. I was in kaktovik doing some surveying south of the village and saw a few caribou. When we went back to town i told a few locals we saw some caribou and they said they dont harvest them if they have calves.

Was in scammon bay and their was loads of specks coming through and no one was hunting. I asked a few of them why and he said they arent fat enough yet. They only start hunting them the last couple weeks they come through once they are fattend up.

Its really annoying to hear people complain about stuff when they havent actually spent time in some of these places and think they know whats going on. (if you have spent time in the villages maybe you have had different experiences and with the villagers) but most of the time they are pretty picky with what they do. There are always going to be bad apples in every user group.

according to delta waterfowl Californians shot 1.1 million ducks and 290,000 geese last year
in 2018 FWS claims alaska harvested 45,000 +/- 30%

even with villagers doing some egg takes and their subsistence hunts i dont see how alaskas harvest could be the problem.

 

[Mike76]

please enlighten us on all these laws.

first and foremost, have you actually been up to the tundra and talked with the natives? Have you seen how particular they are when harvesting animals/eggs.

have you actually seen on a map how many villages there are compared the the amount of land on the north slope? its quite laughable if you think that villagers shooting a few ducks/geese during the spring hunt and harvesting some eggs is going to put any type of dent in a population. when you look at how much breeding habitat is actually up on the north slope.

You guys realize that California shoots more pintails in one day then is harvested in alaska all year. (info coming from a waterfowl bio up here in ak)

I have spent alot of time in the villages for work and 95% of the people are very particular on what and when they harvest it. I was in kaktovik doing some surveying south of the village and saw a few caribou. When we went back to town i told a few locals we saw some caribou and they said they dont harvest them if they have calves.

Was in scammon bay and their was loads of specks coming through and no one was hunting. I asked a few of them why and he said they arent fat enough yet. They only start hunting them the last couple weeks they come through once they are fattend up.

Its really annoying to hear people complain about stuff when they havent actually spent time in some of these places and think they know whats going on. (if you have spent time in the villages maybe you have had different experiences and with the villagers) but most of the time they are pretty picky with what they do. There are always going to be bad apples in every user group.

QUACKKILLNCREW
Well Said!!!!
The Point being! The Sprig Population In many of the flyways are down and out.
But on the Pacific flyways along the Pacific North West the Population well exceeds itself.
Yes your right more Sprig are shot in CA then any where in the US. The high dollar clubs, with big numbers of hunters. Well accepted!
I do not think that AK has depleted any run of fish , or Ducks or anything else. I think the issue brought forward was the fact that AK is a little more liberal on there limits for Ducks then the lower 48.
I wish the lower 48 would run there states and make decisions for there states as done in AK.
Here in Oregon on the west coast our population which I have mentioned numerous times is well exceeded the numbers of Birds that use this flyway.
I just had a reply back that its only about myself and where sprig like to be, now if that wasn't a laugh then I don't know what is.
I have spoken with the Bios in AK not only about whats happening with the Spig Numbers But also with the Brant issues the lower 48 seems to have which is not happening according to the AK Bios in Bay AK.
they assured me that the Not only the Brant are holding there own and have been since 1970 to Date today.
We have to start accepting the fact that the Sprig along the Pacific flyway do not nest in areas that are having these huge issues. The birds nesting in Canada are not the birds nesting in AK, But! we all suffer because one flyway has an issue and another does not. These birds are written up as a continental issue and we all go by what they are finding in nesting areas that are down.
I really think this holds true with most fowl populations that are down. Look at our Canvasback, Bluebills, redheads, I have seen these populations go from one limit to another and back to little or nothing.
I don't think anyone is Blaming AK of the decrease in numbers. What people see is TV programs where villagers are harvesting big numbers of eggs along with the fox which you have to indicate was a huge issue on Aleutian Geese back some years ago. once that issue was taken care of by AK those Birds came back 10 fold and now there is a Limit of 25 and the Pacific North West Coast has literally thousands upon thousands that enter the coast each year.
Don't take to heart that AK is the fault of decline when we have issues non of us will see get better.
we don't even want to get into the Salmon issues the whole west coast is having. Another issue with in itself.
Thanks for your post reply as we all need to read it.. Good Hunting Hunter73

 

[kwackkillncrew]

I dont think alaska comes up with the limits on ducks, i believe they are still set on the federal level. The reason the limits are more liberal i believe is because of the lack of waterfowl hunters compared to other states as well as the time the ducks are here.

Consider just the anchorage area. We can hunt ducks from sept 1 to december 15th or so. In reality you are only shooting puddle ducks form september until mid november if you are lucky. Fairbanks you are lucky to be hunting passed october.

only way 90% of the people in south central alaska are shooting ducks in nov or dec are hunting sea ducks on the saltwater. Some people hunt the kenai river or bigger lakes on the kenai peninsula can still hunt ducks in oct/nov but i would be theres not more then 40 hunters doing that.

 

[Mike76]

Pretty interesting.
I think more ppl hunt Brant up in cold bay AK then Ducks the way it sounds..
I know chatting with the Bio's in Izembek bay where most of the Brant stage before hitting the lower 48 is good hunting according to them until like your saying everything freezes up and drives everything south.
This year that was the issue everything froze up in early October and the birds headed south.
They indicated they get great hunting but like you said it ends pretty dan early.
well you have a great rest of the year. ,Hunter73

 

[Will_m]

So much misinformation in this thread that it seems like satire.