Vortex Japan vs China manufacture

[bcimport]

Noted something interesting recently. In the past the razor line from Vortex had been made in Japan according to the label on the box and item itself. I have been very satisfied with those pieces optically and I've been through quite a few of them buying and selling. The last razor spotter I picked up had a made in China label which was odd but optically and build quality it was fine. Then I ordered a pair of 20x56 Kaibabs and they were made in China, the glass was subpar and the focus between the two barrels couldn't be adjusted correctly. I contacted Vortex and sent them back and was quickly sent a replacement set that was made in Japan. Glass was much better and no focus issues. Just curious if anyone else has seen a decline in quality since the manufacturing went to china?

 

[Bwana]

They also have their products made in the Philippines along with China & Japan...depending on the model.

Which is why I'm puzzled when guy's say "I only buy American made", "at least they're an American company", "no foreign products for me, I buy Vortex for the bulletproof warranty" They are American owned company, and outsource their manufacturing to cheap labor in foreign countries...that costs American jobs just like any other American company that does it.

 

[Tex68w]

I like that they are an American company, I like their warranty, I don't like that they are manufactured over seas. All of the glass will come over seas but it'd be nice if at least their higher end lines like the Razor/Viper were at least assembled here.

 

[jherald]

I've noticed on some viper hd's they were stamped china and some japan. I haven't seen any with a china label in a while, and the last set I checked out were made in Japan that I looked at a few weeks ago. I wonder if it's something that varies or if they had different production runs from different places. From what I saw the japanese labels were superior overall in mechanics and clarity.

 

[jack88]

As a pretty safe rule to follow, anything made in Japan will be of better quality than things made in China. Either way, Vortex is just another American sell-out company that makes big chunks of change at the expense of the average American.

 

[Tex68w]

All of the Viper PST's I've had were marked Made in the Philippines. I'll have to look at the Razor HD binos and spotter next time I have them out, but I want to say that they were marked Made in Japan.

Regardless of where they are made, Vortex makes a great product at a very fair price, especially if you qualify for the Mil/LEO discount. The mass majority of the products we use in the hunting, fishing, and gun industry are outsourced over seas to the lowest bidder, it's just the sad reality of the current consumer driven world we live in. Fortunately for us, the majority of those products are still made to a high standard with good QC checks in place. There are some of the perceived "better" products we purchase like the shelters and packs we all drop large coin on, that are made in the USA, but as noted they come at a cost for that Made in the USA tag. I'm all for spending more money on a product made here in the states by a company that employs my fellow countrymen and doesn't outsource as long as that product is deserving of the increased cost.

 

[KurtR]

Razor amg is made in america. Razor 2 rifle scopes are disassembled when they get here and then re assembled in Wisconsin with the internals they dont want copied over seas. From what i understand more is going to be assembled here as time goes but along with that people are going to pay a premium for that. There is a large segment of people who think 800 bucks is just crazy for a scope so they have to keep some of the lower price options available to make the company profitable also.

 

[KurtR]

As for glass there are only 2 or 3 i cant remember right now that people all get it from the manufacture will spec what they want then from there placement and coatings are the secret sauce.

 

[Lucafu1]

I had a Razor spotter with a china tag. I was disappointed at first but it worked just fine.

 

[efnm]

I can see a difference in my Kaibabs made in Japan (for sale in classified ads, btw) and my Talons that aren't/ That said, they are in different tiers in Vortex's lineup.

 

[R_burg]

As a pretty safe rule to follow, anything made in Japan will be of better quality than things made in China. Either way, Vortex is just another American sell-out company that makes big chunks of change at the expense of the average American.

That "expense" is then routed back into the company to employ many Americans in skilled positions. This is great for America and the economy. Vortex could not compete at its price points and make their products in America, the new AMG scope is proof of that. Would Vortex not being around anymore somehow be better for America?

All of the Viper PST's I've had were marked Made in the Philippines. I'll have to look at the Razor HD binos and spotter next time I have them out, but I want to say that they were marked Made in Japan.

Regardless of where they are made, Vortex makes a great product at a very fair price, especially if you qualify for the Mil/LEO discount. The mass majority of the products we use in the hunting, fishing, and gun industry are outsourced over seas to the lowest bidder, it's just the sad reality of the current consumer driven world we live in. Fortunately for us, the majority of those products are still made to a high standard with good QC checks in place. There are some of the perceived "better" products we purchase like the shelters and packs we all drop large coin on, that are made in the USA, but as noted they come at a cost for that Made in the USA tag. I'm all for spending more money on a product made here in the states by a company that employs my fellow countrymen and doesn't outsource as long as that product is deserving of the increased cost.

Its not sad, actually, and has nothing to do with the a consumer driven society. The ability to manufacturer at a lower cost at the same quality (for a particular line of binos, scopes, clothes, etc) and enact in trade lowers your cost of living, which *raises* your standard of living. This is good for you and good for the economy. Vortex, as a successful US business, then reinvests locally, as many jobs located in the US are needed, regardless of any outsourcing of the low paying manufacturing jobs.

Vortex has the ability to spend as much on QC overseas as they do here. Other manufacturers successfully do this. If you are seeing a decline in quality it has less to do with *where* something is manufactured than Vortex's choice to spend money on their QC process.


Sorry to get off track. The rhetoric gets tiring.

 

[Tex68w]

That "expense" is then routed back into the company to employ many Americans in skilled positions. This is great for America and the economy. Vortex could not compete at its price points and make their products in America, the new AMG scope is proof of that. Would Vortex not being around anymore somehow be better for America?



Its not sad, actually, and has nothing to do with the a consumer driven society. The ability to manufacturer at a lower cost at the same quality (for a particular line of binos, scopes, clothes, etc) and enact in trade lowers your cost of living, which *raises* your standard of living. This is good for you and good for the economy. Vortex, as a successful US business, then reinvests locally, as many jobs located in the US are needed, regardless of any outsourcing of the low paying manufacturing jobs.

Vortex has the ability to spend as much on QC overseas as they do here. Other manufacturers successfully do this. If you are seeing a decline in quality it has less to do with *where* something is manufactured than Vortex's choice to spend money on their QC process.


Sorry to get off track. The rhetoric gets tiring.

While I agree with the economics and benefits of this practice for the business itself I do not agree whole heartedly with the opinion of it improving the standard of living here. There are multiple sides to economics and then there's simply supporting and/or favoring a company that chooses to source/build/manufacture within their country of origin as much as possible. You can spin it however you like, so can I, at the end of the day we get a quality product at varying price points. I don't think anyone demands that the lower end products be built here in the states and still expects them to remain at the current price point.

 

[WRO]

They are just a branding company, no different than bushnell, nikon, most leupold sport optics, etc. Besides the AMG, the rest of it is built and packaged to their specs and then sold. The reason retailers push them so hard is there are large margins in their product, much higher than the alphas.

 

[R_burg]

While I agree with the economics and benefits of this practice for the business itself I do not agree whole heartedly with the opinion of it improving the standard of living here. There are multiple sides to economics and then there's simply supporting and/or favoring a company that chooses to source/build/manufacture within their country of origin as much as possible. You can spin it however you like, so can I, at the end of the day we get a quality product at varying price points. I don't think anyone demands that the lower end products be built here in the states and still expects them to remain at the current price point.

You seem like a smart fellow and I totally agree you can 'speak with your dollars' which I think is a great way to show the market what you value most.

However, in regards to economic indicators, standard of living is one of the more concrete ones, usually judged through inflation adjusted household income or Purchasing Power Parity (PPP). The ability, through trade, to more efficiently manufacturer goods has undoubtedly increased your purchasing power, thereby raising your standard of living (You can buy more with your dollar, all things being equal). Median household incomes also chart this increase, which is a great indicator that PPP isnt misleading us.


PPP:

Inflation Adjust Household Income:

 

[Bwana]

I hate to swim against the tide here, but the optics market worldwide has little effect on our economy/cost of living/quality of daily life. The manufacturers would love the full run of the planet, but other minor commodities like food/goods/condoms tend to control trade.

These graphs are a better representation of the cause/effect of the optics market on economics, excluding of course the lack of American manpower to provide given resources....total net revenues returning to American owners, certainly doesn't equal viable income and security for American labor forces.





And of course



Correlation is not causation

 

[Tex68w]

I hate to swim against the tide here, but the optics market worldwide has little effect on our economy/cost of living/quality of daily life. The manufacturers would love the full run of the planet, but other minor commodities like food/goods/condoms tend to control trade.

These graphs are a better representation of the cause/effect of the optics market on economics, excluding of course the lack of American manpower to provide given resources....total net revenues returning to American owners, certainly doesn't equal viable income and security for American labor forces.

View attachment 45509

View attachment 45510

And of course

View attachment 45511

Correlation is not causation

Pretty much where I was going with this without delving into so many words and theories. PPP is a real indicator of the greater effect of this on our economy, true, but very little of our niche industries/hobbies/interests have any effect on this as a whole. Granted, tens and even hundreds of thousands of different companies in many different industries pursuing this model as a whole make up those effective numbers. Economics in college was interesting but also full of a lot of hog-wash theory and speculation.

 

[Bwana]

Pretty much where I was going with this without delving into so many words and theories. PPP is a real indicator of the greater effect of this on our economy, true, but very little of our niche industries/hobbies/interests have any effect on this as a whole. Granted, tens and even hundreds of thousands of different companies in many different industries pursuing this model as a whole make up those effective numbers. Economics in college was interesting but also full of a lot of hog-wash theory and speculation.

To belabor the point, make sure to check the graphs carefully

 

[bcimport]

This post took an unexpected turn. I just wanted to know if anyone else noted a quaility difference in the razor and Kaibab line after the manufacturing change. I've always considered Japan to created a better product than a Chinese factory and that was what I noted with my binos after the warranty replacement.

 

[R_burg]

I hate to swim against the tide here, but the optics market worldwide has little effect on our economy/cost of living/quality of daily life. The manufacturers would love the full run of the planet, but other minor commodities like food/goods/condoms tend to control trade.

These graphs are a better representation of the cause/effect of the optics market on economics, excluding of course the lack of American manpower to provide given resources....total net revenues returning to American owners, certainly doesn't equal viable income and security for American labor forces.

Correlation is not causation

I understand your response was tongue in cheek, but I think my response was valid and the idea of outsourcing manufacturing and the effect it has on Americans was brought up by another person who said this (I quoted them above): "Vortex is just another American sell-out company that makes big chunks of change at the expense of the average American."

This is by far my favorite hunting forum with the most informed, level headed people I find on any of them, but the idea that Americans are being bled dry by trade is still bandied around here as fact, when it is clearly not backed up by the economics.


Also, Tex does a good job of handling the only serious point you made here:

Pretty much where I was going with this without delving into so many words and theories. PPP is a real indicator of the greater effect of this on our economy, true, but very little of our niche industries/hobbies/interests have any effect on this as a whole. Granted, tens and even hundreds of thousands of different companies in many different industries pursuing this model as a whole make up those effective numbers. Economics in college was interesting but also full of a lot of hog-wash theory and speculation.

Tex, I undertsand your point, but Economics is a social science, not a hard science. Of course its full of theory and speculation. Nobody has a crystal ball.

Also, I still love your earlier point about speaking with your wallet. I think there is no better way to tell the economy what is important to you than putting your money where your mouth is.

 

[Tex68w]

I understand your response was tongue in cheek, but I think my response was valid and the idea of outsourcing manufacturing and the effect it has on Americans was brought up by another person who said this (I quoted them above): "Vortex is just another American sell-out company that makes big chunks of change at the expense of the average American."

This is by far my favorite hunting forum with the most informed, level headed people I find on any of them, but the idea that Americans are being bled dry by trade is still bandied around here as fact, when it is clearly not backed up by the economics.


Also, Tex does a good job of handling the only serious point you made here:



Tex, I undertsand your point, but Economics is a social science, not a hard science. Of course its full of theory and speculation. Nobody has a crystal ball.

Also, I still love your earlier point about speaking with your wallet. I think there is no better way to tell the economy what is important to you than putting your money where your mouth is.

R_Burg, I agree that this is the most informed and what seems to be the most level headed and well-read group of enthusiasts I've encountered out of all of the forums I frequent, it really is a breath of fresh air. I agree that economics is a social science and that's why I take most of what I learned there and continue to encounter with a grain of salt. I agree with you on most accounts and I am glad that we can engage one another without the childish name calling and baseless claims that's so prevalent on other boards.

And to the OP, my apologies for directing this thread off-course.