Victory RIP TKO vs Black Eagle Rampage questions

[5MilesBack]

Rampages are quite a bit cheaper aren't they? I like their stock components better than victory as well. If you are buying ethics or IW components, you're off cheaper with the rampage.

From my experience with the Rampage 250's......you'll need a collar if you want to keep them from breaking the ends.

 

[Page Master]

From my experience with the Rampage 250's......you'll need a collar if you want to keep them from breaking the ends.

Luckily I only need 300's. I had fantastic luck last year with them.

 

[Dos Perros]

Had great experience with the Rampage shafts, but as others mentioned if you're going to be hunting I'd go with a different insert/outsert system. Their half in/out cost me a bull.

 

[Planopurist]

...Their half in/out cost me a bull.

Can you elaborate on what happened? Do you think a collar/footer would have been enough help? You thin the Easton HIT or Iron Will system would have solved the issue? I’m building a Gold Tip Airstrike, but I’m debating the insert system. I may build it with GT SS half-out and collar.


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[Dos Perros]

Can you elaborate on what happened? Do you think a collar/footer would have been enough help? You thin the Easton HIT or Iron Will system would have solved the issue? I’m building a Gold Tip Airstrike, but I’m debating the insert system. I may build it with GT SS half-out and collar.


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Hit a rib and the arrow blew up. The bull kept my broadhead and insert/outsert, and I recovered all the carbon. The front several inches were completely splintered open in a hundred different fibers. I'm not too familiar on all the other options for inserts/outserts for these shafts, but I would go with something where the front edge of the shaft was completely covered and protected. Ideally it would be supported both from the inside and outside, but at a minimum on the outside.

I would go to a system like this no matter what shaft I shot, BTW. It's not like I think the Rampages are soft or brittle or something. I shoot BE Deep Impacts now because I prefer the up front hardware.

 

[5MilesBack]

Their half in/out cost me a bull.

Hit a rib and the arrow blew up.

That wasn't because of the half in/out system they have.......that was the arrow itself, which is why I mentioned that they'd need collars......they aren't very durable on their own even in the 250 spine, and anything less than the 250's will be even less durable. But not all .204" arrows need a collar, even when using a HIT insert.

This is why I test the heck out of my arrows and BH's before hunting with them. Straight on.....angled through 3/4" plywood and the same for 2x6's. The last thing I want on a big bull is a broken arrow before the BH has even gotten through the vitals.

 

[Page Master]

That wasn't because of the half in/out system they have.......that was the arrow itself, which is why I mentioned that they'd need collars......they aren't very durable on their own even in the 250 spine, and anything less than the 250's will be even less durable. But not all .204" arrows need a collar, even when using a HIT insert.

This is why I test the heck out of my arrows and BH's before hunting with them. Straight on.....angled through 3/4" plywood and the same for 2x6's. The last thing I want on a big bull is a broken arrow before the BH has even gotten through the vitals.

I had good luck with mine last year shooting 3D and hunting. The arrows never let me down. Both issues I had with their outserts was one going through a target, bouncing off a t-post and into a cow pasture. The other hit a target stake and bent. But otherwise zero issue.

I ordered the ethics footers and will use an easton HIT with a 125g head to see how well it works.

 

[ia bhtr]

I ended up ordering a dozen RIP TKO 340s last nite , wnt with IW hit insets and collars, took a bit for me to switch away from my Axis arrows , according to Archers Advantage the way I am bldg them , should b right at 14% FOC @ 450 grains, throwing a stainless 125 grn Vipre Trick up front , should end up 265/270 for speed I am guessing

Hopefully this will be good elk medicine if I get the opportunity

 

[Dos Perros]

That wasn't because of the half in/out system they have.......that was the arrow itself, which is why I mentioned that they'd need collars......they aren't very durable on their own even in the 250 spine, and anything less than the 250's will be even less durable. But not all .204" arrows need a collar, even when using a HIT insert.

This is why I test the heck out of my arrows and BH's before hunting with them. Straight on.....angled through 3/4" plywood and the same for 2x6's. The last thing I want on a big bull is a broken arrow before the BH has even gotten through the vitals.

How can you determine it was the arrow? What data are you using to support that conclusion?

 

[5MilesBack]

How can you determine it was the arrow? What data are you using to support that conclusion?

Just off of what information you provided. "Hit a rib and the arrow blew up. The bull kept my broadhead and insert/outsert, and I recovered all the carbon. The front several inches were completely splintered open in a hundred different fibers."

"Arrow blowing up" and "front several inches completely splintered" sure seems like an arrow problem to me......and exactly what I experienced with the Rampages as well during my testing. The bull keeping the BH and insert/outsert would indicate that it wasn't a BH or insert problem. Obviously some insert systems can contribute to "arrow" issues......but that still points right back to the arrow being the issue. A stronger arrow wouldn't have had that issue. So the solution is a stronger arrow.......or a collar.......or even both if one chooses to do that. I prefer a stronger arrow and no collar.

 

[Trial153]

Lateral force that applied to an outsert and then breaks the arrow is the fault of the outsert. Its a fault shared by every outsert regardless of the arrow.

 

[Page Master]

Lateral force that applied to an outsert and then breaks the arrow is the fault of the outsert. Its a fault shared by every outsert regardless of the arrow.

Because of the leverage applied by the outsert on the carbon?

 

[Trial153]

Because of the leverage applied by the outsert on the carbon?

Yes.
I have yet to see an animal that doesn't move to some degree however slight when you shoot it. That motion is almost always not in the same direction as the arrows travel. Add a lever that sticks inside into a carbon arrow, then add sideways force to it while it's traveling and you will break a carbon arrow at times.
Along with alignment issues with use, it's the reason I no longer use any type of outset/half out.
Yes, there are ways to mitigate it, longer outset to carbon contact in the shaft, shorter protruding outset( thing a shorter lever) etc.

 

[Dos Perros]

Just off of what information you provided. "Hit a rib and the arrow blew up. The bull kept my broadhead and insert/outsert, and I recovered all the carbon. The front several inches were completely splintered open in a hundred different fibers."

"Arrow blowing up" and "front several inches completely splintered" sure seems like an arrow problem to me......and exactly what I experienced with the Rampages as well during my testing. The bull keeping the BH and insert/outsert would indicate that it wasn't a BH or insert problem. Obviously some insert systems can contribute to "arrow" issues......but that still points right back to the arrow being the issue. A stronger arrow wouldn't have had that issue. So the solution is a stronger arrow.......or a collar.......or even both if one chooses to do that. I prefer a stronger arrow and no collar.

A poor insert/outsert design could cause even a stronger arrow to fail. I think you'd have to design a test and test multiple arrows from multiple lots from multiple models and manufacturers to conclude that gram for gram one is 'stronger' (however that is defined) than the other.

 

[Page Master]

Yes.
I have yet to see an animal that doesn't move to some degree however slight when you shoot it. That motion is almost always not in the same direction as the arrows travel. Add a lever that sticks inside into a carbon arrow, then add sideways force to it while it's traveling and you will break a carbon arrow at times.
Along with alignment issues with use, it's the reason I no longer use any type of outset/half out.
Yes, there are ways to mitigate it, longer outset to carbon contact in the shaft, shorter protruding outset( thing a shorter lever) etc.

I like the Ethics outsert system so far. I think a HIT and footer is going to be better though. Less runout from component stacking and only the actual point is creating the leverage point on the front. Time will tell.

 

[5MilesBack]

Lateral force that applied to an outsert and then breaks the arrow is the fault of the outsert. Its a fault shared by every outsert regardless of the arrow.

Actually I'd call that the fault of the person that built those arrows with that system. But that goes right back to my comments about "testing" your setups.

 

[5MilesBack]

A poor insert/outsert design could cause even a stronger arrow to fail. I think you'd have to design a test and test multiple arrows from multiple lots from multiple models and manufacturers to conclude that gram for gram one is 'stronger' (however that is defined) than the other.

Outserts are a very poor excuse for an insert system IMO, because of the lateral forces described above.......and because I haven't found any that don't eventually bend causing flight problems.

As for determining arrows that are stronger........no, that's actually pretty easy. A lot of arrows I've tested will do as your Rampage did just from shooting it into a 2x6 regardless what insert it's using. Some arrows will not. Have you seen the video on youtube of the guy shooting a Sirius Apollo arrow into his basement concrete wall? The arrow survived and came out unscathed. I shot one of my Trophy Ridge Crush arrows with a regular HIT insert and FP square into a steel T-post. It mushroomed the FP, but the arrow was fine. The one thing my TR Crush arrows and the Apollo's have in common is.......a weaved carbon design. That's the only reason I'm trying these RIP TKO's........because of their weaved carbon build and they come in a .001" straightness. To me, it has been proven to be tougher. Same thing for the old PSE Radial X-weave arrows. They were tough.

Now, you can alleviate a lot of those problems with some form of collar on your arrow builds, but I just don't care for them. I've found for me.......that if I choose the right arrow to start with, it just isn't an issue at all using HIT inserts and that makes a super clean arrow that spins perfectly true.

 

[higgibrc239]

VAP gamer and elites are great. Consistent and spine aligned. Only frustration is the outserts suck on high density targets like carpet or dried out 3Ds, I've lost a few pulling them out. This is 80yds.

 

[CodeMonkey]

I shot the BE Rampages for the last two years. The arrows themselves are incredibly consistent. The half out that comes with them is the worst system imaginable. Anytime the arrow hits something even remotely hard, it blows up. When I say remotely hard, I'm even talking cold 3-D targets. I have over a dozen shafts in my basement with blown up front ends.

I was considering adding IW components, but that comes pretty close to doubling the cost of the arrow. More than likely, I will either go with the X Impacts and FOCOS system or stick with the Rampages, go up a spine (needed due to extra weight of the components), and do the Rampage FOCOS system. Another option is to use the VPA footers + brass HIT inserts, but for $40/dozen (just for the footers!) that's getting up there as well.

 

[Page Master]

I shot the BE Rampages for the last two years. The arrows themselves are incredibly consistent. The half out that comes with them is the worst system imaginable. Anytime the arrow hits something even remotely hard, it blows up. When I say remotely hard, I'm even talking cold 3-D targets. I have over a dozen shafts in my basement with blown up front ends.

I was considering adding IW components, but that comes pretty close to doubling the cost of the arrow. More than likely, I will either go with the X Impacts and FOCOS system or stick with the Rampages, go up a spine (needed due to extra weight of the components), and do the Rampage FOCOS system. Another option is to use the VPA footers + brass HIT inserts, but for $40/dozen (just for the footers!) that's getting up there as well.

That sounds weird. I haven't had any issues with rampages breaking the fronts. Are yours 250 spine?