Utah Muzzleloader Proposed Changes

[CorbLand]

On another note, looks like 1x or open sights going forward.

Honestly, didnt see that coming.

 

[roadrunner]

Honestly, didnt see that coming.

I did. Well, maybe more confident it would rather than it wouldn't.

 

[ElDiablito]

I did. Well, maybe more confident it would rather than it wouldn't.

Yes, that’s where my money was on this.

 

[CorbLand]

I did. Well, maybe more confident it would rather than it wouldn't.

I thought they would stay with the status quo.

I am glad that I did buy an open sight muzzy last year though.

 

[roadrunner]

I thought they would stay with the status quo.

I am glad that I did buy an open sight muzzy last year though.

We already went down this road in NM a year ago. The change hadn't been implemented yet, but I ordered a Williams Western early and had it when the hammer came down. Others were scrambling to get one after they drew a muzzy tag.

 

[wind gypsy]

The increase in numbers of applicants, does mean that there's more people interested in muzzleloader hunting, which is because of the rifle hunts where so hard to draw and muzzleloader tags were not. Also, since scopes were allowed, there was a large increase in applicants from out of state, who bring in a ton of money.
I know exactly the difference between applicants and the number of hunters, and I understand that its not the number of tags issued. That was a doozy comment you made.
Read it all over again............ Maybe you should join the Utah Muzzleloaders Association and realize what's really happening in Utah with muzzleloader hunters. Its free..........

Nobody cares "what's happening." All of the modern advancements to muzzleloaders to most every hunter is nothing more than a means to get them closer to having centerfire lethality outside of centerfire hunting seasons which negates the reason for even having a separate muzzleloader season. Might as well just give more rifle tags and scrap muzzleloader season so people stop wasting 5 grand on a gamer muzzleloader and let the people use their fancy muzzle loaders during the rifle season if they like em so much. I'm sure tons of people would do it since they are such enthusiasts..

 

[ENCORE]

.................. let the people use their fancy muzzle loaders during the rifle season if they like em so much. I'm sure tons of people would do it since they are such enthusiasts..

Most dedicated muzzleloaders use their muzzleloaders during ALL legal hunts. One of the other guys posting also uses his muzzleloaders during all legal seasons.
In the last 30yrs, except for a single time using a 450 Bushmaster and a single time using my 40-60, I hunt exclusively with a muzzleloader.
No, I don't play dress up, wanting to be something I'm not. We have enough of that now days.

 

[wind gypsy]

Most dedicated muzzleloaders use their muzzleloaders during ALL legal hunts. One of the other guys posting also uses his muzzleloaders during all legal seasons.
In the last 30yrs, except for a single time using a 450 Bushmaster and a single time using my 40-60, I hunt exclusively with a muzzleloader.
No, I don't play dress up, wanting to be something I'm not. We have enough of that now days.

Maybe, but "dedicated" muzzleloaders like you outline are a tiny minority of the people who hunt with a muzzleloader.

What is it about a muzzleloader, using a centerfire action, centerfire primers, and centerfire powders (when legal) that really sets a guy apart from centerfire season other than the lack of a quick follow up shot (shouldn't be needed) and the burden of stuffing it all down the muzzle?

 

[CorbLand]

We already went down this toad in NM a year ago. The change hadn't been implemented yet, but I ordered a Williams Western early and had it when the hammer came down. Others were scrambling to get one after they drew a muzzy tag.

I knew that scopes were going to be on the table so I bought one and purchased a williams for it last week. I didnt think it would actually happen but I figured I would rather have one in the safe ready to go if it did.

 

[ENCORE]

Maybe, but "dedicated" muzzleloaders like you outline are a tiny minority of the people who hunt with a muzzleloader.

What is it about a muzzleloader, using a centerfire action, centerfire primers, and centerfire powders (when legal) that really sets a guy apart from centerfire season other than the lack of a quick follow up shot (shouldn't be needed) and the burden of stuffing it all down the muzzle?

Everything done with a percussion side hammer, is done with a modern inline. You pour propellant down the barrel. You push a projectile down the barrel and seat it on the propellant.

Same thing for both right????? If there's something done different, please explain.

Next, to fire the rifle, you to prime it with an ignition source. Either rifle can use a 209 primer, or a LRP, or a percussion cap.
No matter which ignition system is used, they are identical, as the propellant requires an ignition source.

So, again they function the same. You load it through the muzzle, push a projectile down the barrel and seat it on the propellant. Then you use an ignition source to fire the rifle.

They LOOK different but function the same. Just at the AR rifles being black are believed by some to be ASSULT RIFLES. A modern inline LOOKS different, yet it still functions the same.

 

[PathFinder]

The MZ season is probably my favorite in both UT and CO, and I'm glad they went back to iron sights.
Muzzleloader seasons have nothing to do with growing muzzleloading or increasing participation in some club. It's an in-between season with in-between dates for deer, and iron sites are much more appropriate.

 

[UpTop]

This decision was made well before any RAC meetings were held. The RAC meetings are nothing more than a required dog and pony show. This decision is not going to save the deer. The hunt is a low success rate with or without the scopes.

 

[ElDiablito]

The point was never to “save the deer.” Although this change will likely save a few mature bucks.

 

[ElDiablito]

The hunt is a low success rate with or without the scopes.

And…the muzzy hunt (in recent years) isn’t what you’d call “low success” - it’s only slightly lower success than the ALW on average.

 

[MallardSX2]

And…the muzzy hunt (in recent years) isn’t what you’d call “low success” - it’s only slightly lower success than the ALW on average.

View attachment 634998

That graph will look a lot different next year I bet.

 

[CorbLand]

This decision was made well before any RAC meetings were held. The RAC meetings are nothing more than a required dog and pony show. This decision is not going to save the deer. The hunt is a low success rate with or without the scopes.

Be curious to what makes you say that? 4 out of the 5 RACs voted to accept the divisions proposal and way back in 2014/2015, 5 out of 5 RACs voted to not allow variable scopes and the Board voted to allow them anyway.

Like stated before, this was not to save deer, it was to make the muzzleloader hunt different from the ALW season. The saving deer idea was brought up to change the emotions of people and give someone an argument. (straw man argument) Same way that the only thing people focus on when it comes to ethics is how fast we kill things. Ethics is a list of things, that all work together. If all we cared about was how fast and effectively we killed things, there would be no bows and muzzleloaders allowed.

You want to save deer? Get better habitat. You want to hunt? Lower success rates so we can issue some tags and get people hunting. Doesnt matter what weapons or scopes we can use when they are issuing 30,000 general season deer tags and you get to hunt once every 10 years.

The bottom line is this, Utahans are going to have to make a choice. Do we want to hunt or apply for hunts? Cutting tags has worked so well we have cut 75% of them over 40-50 years and we still have to do it. I was a below average student but I do know what the definition of insanity is.

Utah issued the lowest number of deer tags it has issued in 80 plus years as stated by SFW. If true, that is scary and means we issued less deer tags this year than we did when we were trying to rebuild from unregulated and market hunting...

 

[HighUintas]

Utah issued the lowest number of deer tags it has issued in 80 plus years. That is scary. We issued less deer tags this year then we did when we were trying to rebuild from unregulated and market hunting...

Where do you get that data? That is really surprising and interesting. I'm just curious because if we have that data all the way back 80 years, I'd like to check it out.

 

[CorbLand]

Where do you get that data? That is really surprising and interesting. I'm just curious because if we have that data all the way back 80 years, I'd like to check it out.

SFW stated it at the RAC meetings. I will see if I can get it from them. I am going to go back and edit my original post to make it clear that currently, I have not been able to confirm that data.

EDIT. SFW responded back that "They do not have that information but it was given to them by the DWR."
I have reached out to the division to see if they can verify and/or provide me that information.

 

[CMP70306]

That graph will look a lot different next year I bet.

Why? The 2022 success rate looks to be pretty much the same as the 2015 rate when there were no scopes allowed.

 

[PLhunter]

Why? The 2022 success rate looks to be pretty much the same as the 2015 rate when there were no scopes allowed.

That's a difficult timeline to judge. The winter of 2016 was brutal. Regardless, if success rates are the same then nothing to complain about. What is interesting about the attached graph is how much closer together the muzzleloader and rifle success rates become after adding scopes...