Unknown Munitions for the 270 WSM

[tdhanses]

Robby
Here is a great article on ladder testing. I color my bullets like the author also.

Long-Range Load Development

Reloading for long range shooter. Accurateshooter.com is the best guide for benchrest and precision shooting, complete with PPC, 6BR, 243, 223, 308, 7mm Cartridge Guides, Reloading, Shooter Message Boards, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips...

www.6mmbr.com

That’s a great write up of how to do it. One extra step I used to do was put a center dot on a piece of paper at the bench, after each shot I will number shots 1-10 etc in ref to the center point of aim on the target and looking through my spotter I’ll mark the general location of each shot on the piece of paper. Then when I pull the target I’ll have a second general ref to the actual target.

I’ve found it easy to track each shot with the secondary ref.

I couldn’t ever use my chrono since it changes my poi, so one step I always missed was measuring ES/SD when doing this.

I’ve moved away from ladder testing and now I load 5rd for each load and measure for the lowest ES/SD and don’t even pay attention to groups. Once I’ve found this I’ll play with seating depth etc and group sizes.

 

[Cahunter805]

It’s also a big help to color the bullets and use white paper. You can see the color around the edge of the hole.

 

[robby denning]

Robby
Here is a great article on ladder testing. I color my bullets like the author also.

Long-Range Load Development

Reloading for long range shooter. Accurateshooter.com is the best guide for benchrest and precision shooting, complete with PPC, 6BR, 243, 223, 308, 7mm Cartridge Guides, Reloading, Shooter Message Boards, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips...

www.6mmbr.com

That’s a great write up of how to do it. One extra step I used to do was put a center dot on a piece of paper at the bench, after each shot I will number shots 1-10 etc in ref to the center point of aim on the target and looking through my spotter I’ll mark the general location of each shot on the piece of paper. Then when I pull the target I’ll have a second general ref to the actual target.

I’ve found it easy to track each shot with the secondary ref.

I couldn’t ever use my chrono since it changes my poi, so one step I always missed was measuring ES/SD when doing this.

I’ve moved away from ladder testing and now I load 5rd for each load and measure for the lowest ES/SD and don’t even pay attention to groups. Once I’ve found this I’ll play with seating depth etc and group sizes.

OK guys, I read that article and have an understanding of the process. Thank you.

Got the box open. Nice!

@Unknown Munitions looks like I have wind at least through Tuesday in the 15-25 mph range, and possibly all week.

What wind speed do I need to stay below to get a good test on this?


What range will you have me shooting at?

 

[tdhanses]

OK guys, I read that article and have an understanding of the process. Thank you.

@Unknown Munitions looks like I have wind at least through Tuesday in the 15-25 mph range, and possibly all week.

What wind speed do I need to stay below to get a good test on this?


What range will you have me shooting at?

I would shoot at 200yards min, preferably 300 yards.

 

[Unknown Munitions]

OK guys, I read that article and have an understanding of the process. Thank you.

Got the box open. Nice!

@Unknown Munitions looks like I have wind at least through Tuesday in the 15-25 mph range, and possibly all week.

What wind speed do I need to stay below to get a good test on this?


What range will you have me shooting at?

Accurately recording your velocities is most important at this stage. You could shoot at whatever yardage your most comfortable and experienced at judging your group size

 

[robby denning]

Accurately recording your velocities is most important at this stage. You could shoot at whatever yardage your most comfortable and experienced at judging your group size

Thanks, I'll get ahold of you. Friday/Saturday look to be the first days with anything around 10 mph in the mornings. Today's gusting to 40!!!

 

[robby denning]

Here goes on my first ladder test. I feel like a big boy.

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[robby denning]

All done. I’ll post results later today. It was fun and educational

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[robby denning]

OK, I phone conf'ed with Jacob at Unknown yesterday just to make sure I ran this the way he wanted as it's his load on the line. He said we're not worried about groups at this point, just lowest SD/ES, so that was the goal. I'm an accuracy addict (not as bad as some Roksliders though) so I did record group size. All loads shot at 100 yards.

Below are the results.

Note the Chrony lost it's sunshade on group 5, so it threw an error when I was fixing it. I had to reset it between shots 2 and 3. It did record all 3 shots, so the data is there. I calculated ES but didn't workout SD as there are different formulas out there and not sure which to use, but that group had one of the highest ES, so I'm assuming Jake will throw it out.

Chrony missed 2nd shot on group 7 completely so no data there unless Jake wants to run it off two shots, but ES was high on it too.




Best SD/ES (load #9)


2nd Lowest (load # 10)


3rd Lowest (load # 2)


So just waiting to hear from Jake on next step. Chime in with questions, as he's on this thread, too.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Robby, I didn't see anywhere what the distance was. I'm assuming 200?

Randy

 

[BuckSnort]

Time to play with seating depth on load #9

 

[robby denning]

Robby, I didn't see anywhere what the distance was. I'm assuming 200?

Randy

Oh ya, thanks, I forgot. I went with 100 yds.


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[robby denning]

Time to play with seating depth on load #9

Hey man, that’s what I was wondering if Jake will recommend. This methods pretty dang new to me, so thanks for your input.

Up until about three years ago when I started working with Mike Johnson, all I ever did was went with a standard seating depth, and played with charge weight.

Surprisingly I had a lot of MOA loads, but now I’m learning how important ES is, it’s going to be interesting to consider that too. I guess what I’m learning, is it’s not just about group size.


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[BuckSnort]

Hey man, that’s what I was wondering if Jake will recommend. This methods pretty dang new to me, so thanks for your input.

Up until about three years ago when I started working with Mike Johnson, all I ever did was went with a standard seating depth, and played with charge weight.

Surprisingly I had a lot of MOA loads, but now I’m learning how important ES is, it’s going to be interesting to consider that too. I guess what I’m learning, is it’s not just about group size.


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I'm in the same boat.. I started reloading in 1992 and have always loaded for the best 100 yard groups.. Last year I started twisting turrets and shooting long range and I learned a lot in short time about E.S. (I'm still new to long range though not denying that)

Looks like a good day for some shooting, I was actually telling myself that on the drive home from the job and looking towards the hills...

 

[tdhanses]

Oh ya, thanks, I forgot. I went with 100 yds.


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Yeah I wouldn’t consider this a traditional ladder test where you shoot one shot for each load and are looking for the node based on how close you are vertically shooting all shots at the sam point. I think you did right by only doing 100yards, I also agree group size means nothing as of yet, group 9 looks worth playing with.

 

[robby denning]

Yeah I wouldn’t consider this a traditional ladder test where you shoot one shot for each load and are looking for the node based on how close you are vertically shooting all shots at the sam point. I think you did right by only doing 100yards, I also agree group size means nothing as of yet, group 9 looks worth playing with.

Thanks Tim

 

[doverpack12]

Interested to see what Unknown works with. I think I would split 9/10 and work seating there for a little buffer on each side. Only a total ES of 30 over a spread of 0.2 gr and each of the loads is about the same ES with their respective charges. 9 looks good but if your powder charge varies at all on the lower side things open up in a hurry.

 

[ckleeves]

How much difference do you normally see off data collected from 3 shots vs say 10? I take it your just looking for a trend across a .2 or .3 grain spread?

I’m curious because I have chased some dead ends on looking at a small sample size. Groups 3 and 4 are a perfect example of this, I would bet that group 3 wouldn’t repeat over a 10 shot test.

When I chrono 10 shots of the same load I can almost always cherry pick the data and find 3 that have single digit ES, but the 10 shot Es shows 70+ but if I picked the “right” 3 out of the box and shot them I could have a ES of 6.

Not saying it’s happening here because groups 9 and 10 show a good trend across 6 shots with a .2 grain spread and 30 FPS between them, but I would want to see a bigger sample before I started chasing them.

I guess IME 3 shot Es testing is about like shooting 3 shot groups.


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[robby denning]

How much difference do you normally see off data collected from 3 shots vs say 10? I take it your just looking for a trend across a .2 or .3 grain spread?

I’m curious because I have chased some dead ends on looking at a small sample size. Groups 3 and 4 are a perfect example of this, I would bet that group 3 wouldn’t repeat over a 10 shot test.

When I chrono 10 shots of the same load I can almost always cherry pick the data and find 3 that have single digit ES, but the 10 shot Es shows 70+ but if I picked the “right” 3 out of the box and shot them I could have a ES of 6.

Not saying it’s happening here because groups 9 and 10 show a good trend across 6 shots with a .2 grain spread and 30 FPS between them, but I would want to see a bigger sample before I started chasing them.

I guess IME 3 shot Es testing is about like shooting 3 shot groups.


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I wouldn’t argue without a bit bro. I’ll let @Unknown Munitions chime in with his thoughts.

But keep in mind I’m not shooting a turret scope, and my goal is just to get to 700 yards as that’s what my lowest hash mark goes to. So we might not need the precision with this project that say 10 shots would bring.

Jake, what say you on this?


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[Unknown Munitions]

I wouldn’t argue without a bit bro. I’ll let @Unknown Munitions chime in with his thoughts.

But keep in mind I’m not shooting a turret scope, and my goal is just to get to 700 yards as that’s what my lowest hash mark goes to. So we might not need the precision with this project that say 10 shots would bring.

Jake, what say you on this?


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Hey Robby, I have to be honest here with your Chrony results. To see extreme spread results in the 3 digits means something is very wrong. With kernel accurate powder charges, consistent neck tension, all components from the same lot, uniformed flash holes and primer pcockets, bullet seating depth accurate to within .001", primer seating depth and crush accurate to .001", this spread should not happen with a functional barrel and chronograph. I would love it if you could send me your rifle, so I can shoot the same test past a Labradar and see if your recorded results match up. Please let me know your thoughts, it would be difficult for me to call the right direction with the data that has been acquired so far. Feel free to call me and discuss,