- Banned
- #21
It is true you can get so fixated on one right you start to give up others and become a prisoner of the cause.
Tulsa shooting
- Thread starter Newtosavage
- Start date
- Status
- Banned
- #22
OP
OP
Newtosavage
WKR
I'm afraid that's exactly what happened and, like abortion, the far right knew they could manipulate voters if they picked the right issues and turned them into the boogey men. To be fair, the far left does it too.
A scared voter is a motivated voter.
TSAMP
WKR
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- Jul 16, 2019
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You had me until Canada. Almost though.
Ratbeetle
WKR
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So predictable and pathetic coming from the resident leftist concern troll.
You know nothing about me. I've been all over this world and there is no place better than the USA. If europe is so great, feel free to move there.
Jaker_cc
WKR
I live 20 miles from Uvalde. I guarantee you the number of people that wish they were in that school with a gun highly outnumber the amount of people who blame the gun or the 2nd amendment. There is one reason that shooting happened, and that’s because someone evil decided to kill innocent children.
When a gun starts going off on its own in a safe somewhere and kills a bunch of people then maybe we can have a different conversation. But as long as someone is holding that gun pulling the trigger, it’s a people problem not a gun problem. You could kill just as many people driving a car into a crowd. Genghis kahn and his homies killed millions of people and there wasn’t a gun in sight. Evil will still do evil things despite the tool at hand
Wyobohunter
WKR
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2021
- Messages
- 1,748
Metal illness is a problem in every country, including ones that don’t have mass shootings.
Do do have some examples of these groomers? Most abuse (sexual or otherwise) happens in the home and is caused by relatives and close friends.
Which of these mass shooters is from the third world? How do we celebrate mental illness and how is that causal? What is the connection between all of the other things you don’t personally like and any kind of gun violence?
Look folks. Every bit of energy we use up on the imaginary boogeymen is energy that could be spent looking for solutions. Lots of us like to talk tough in the manner of “take them from our cold dead hands” but that will not be the reality.
If something doesn’t change they will take them away. We will all be really mad but it will happen anyway. No person will stand a chance of stopping it.
- Banned
- #27
OP
OP
Newtosavage
WKR
Did you personally know any of the children, teachers or their family members? How can you speak for them?
- Banned
- #28
OP
OP
Newtosavage
WKR
Yup, so denying the problem and deflecting the cause is only contributing to having your guns taken away. It's a head in the sand approach. Pumping money into the NRA will only last for so long.
Wyobohunter, I dont know you so I apologize in advance if this comes off wrong, but I do want to take issue with one thing you said that I think is important. Yes, both political parties have been guilty of targeting guns, and the fact is that we have to do something about it or guns will continue to be the scapegoat whether they are actually “responsible” or not--If I'm understanding you correctly then I do agree with some of what you wrote and probably some of the solutions as well. But, I have a problem with framing the problem as "guns are the common denominator" because I think it plays into the standard narrative and the same "non-solution" (i.e. if we take the guns away the problem will go away), which I don’t see as being at-all definitive or effective. Because I think every day we keep blaming guns is one more day that we AREN'T actually addressing these problems.
The media and those who would like to take away Americans right to own a firearm would have us believe the common denominator of all of our problems is the gun, as you said. But if we keep reducing the multitude of different issues involved in “gun deaths” to guns, we will never get to the root causes that are behind them, and they will not be fixed. I’m talking about murder in urban areas versus suicide in rural areas versus mass shootings, and probably also teasing out domestic violence, all lumped together into “gun violence”, and all under the banner of active shooter incidents. No one ever reads about the fact that as rates of firearm ownership have increased, rates of murder have actually DECREASED (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/), which to me calls the “guns are the common denominator” narrative into serious question. We also don’t hear about the rates of violent crimes using other implements in countries where their citizens have already been disarmed, we only hear "gun violence decreased after guns were banned"—google “knife crime” or “acid attacks” and it becomes clear to me that the data says large numbers of violent offenders will simply move on to the next implement when guns are not obtainable. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/864736/knife-crime-in-london/#:~:text=The number of knife or,there were 9.75 thousand offences ). Again, this does not make it appear to me that guns are the common denominator.
Additionally, we definitely don’t hear about what the societal COST will be if we make access to firearms more difficult—after all, it’s relatively well established that “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008"…and "Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004)." (at least as long as you think the National Academies of Sciences is a reputable source: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18319/chapter/1 --see p 15 and 16)
So no, I reject that “guns are the common denominator”, because 1) I don’t see where it is actually established that guns are the cause of any of these problems, so it seems like a gross oversimplification that doesn't accomplish enough, while also taking away part of my agency to keep myself out of trouble; 2) I want to do something about these problems because they are huge problems, so I need to see the causes of the problems talked about and addressed, and one of the short-term solutions is allowing people to have agency in preventing violent crime—the evidence tells me that gun-free zones are not cutting it, and 3) I think there are a multitude of other things we could point to that are ALSO common denominators just as much or more-so than guns, that seem to be more closely tied to the root cause of these issues. I’m talking about topics like developing and maintaining in-person social skills, realistic ideas of what success and healthy values look like, learning to deal with failure, and teaching personal agency and responsibility. No silver bullet here, and nothing will happen quickly, but it took a long time to get into this pickle and I think it’s unrealistic—no matter what rights we trample—to get out of it quickly. I think we can start by demanding that our media and our political parties and politicians pick up an agenda that actually acknowledges and differentiates between the real various aspects of “gun violence” and addresses the causes of them and the realistic timeline for solutions, and acknowledges that in order to make a serious dent in these problems individual people are going to have to step up and take responsibility for the solutions, both proactively and defensively. I think we can also hold the dept of justice responsible for prosecuting more straw-purchases and illegal gun sales to people who are already barred from ownership--those are laws already on the books that everyone supports (edit: i.e. everyone supports keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and those already legally barred from ownership) and are weak or ineffective because there is very little enforcement in many cases (https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2018/p...raw-purchase-violations-depends-on-state-laws).
there. apologies for the rant, but I feel much better now.
The media and those who would like to take away Americans right to own a firearm would have us believe the common denominator of all of our problems is the gun, as you said. But if we keep reducing the multitude of different issues involved in “gun deaths” to guns, we will never get to the root causes that are behind them, and they will not be fixed. I’m talking about murder in urban areas versus suicide in rural areas versus mass shootings, and probably also teasing out domestic violence, all lumped together into “gun violence”, and all under the banner of active shooter incidents. No one ever reads about the fact that as rates of firearm ownership have increased, rates of murder have actually DECREASED (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/), which to me calls the “guns are the common denominator” narrative into serious question. We also don’t hear about the rates of violent crimes using other implements in countries where their citizens have already been disarmed, we only hear "gun violence decreased after guns were banned"—google “knife crime” or “acid attacks” and it becomes clear to me that the data says large numbers of violent offenders will simply move on to the next implement when guns are not obtainable. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/864736/knife-crime-in-london/#:~:text=The number of knife or,there were 9.75 thousand offences ). Again, this does not make it appear to me that guns are the common denominator.
Additionally, we definitely don’t hear about what the societal COST will be if we make access to firearms more difficult—after all, it’s relatively well established that “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008"…and "Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004)." (at least as long as you think the National Academies of Sciences is a reputable source: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/18319/chapter/1 --see p 15 and 16)
So no, I reject that “guns are the common denominator”, because 1) I don’t see where it is actually established that guns are the cause of any of these problems, so it seems like a gross oversimplification that doesn't accomplish enough, while also taking away part of my agency to keep myself out of trouble; 2) I want to do something about these problems because they are huge problems, so I need to see the causes of the problems talked about and addressed, and one of the short-term solutions is allowing people to have agency in preventing violent crime—the evidence tells me that gun-free zones are not cutting it, and 3) I think there are a multitude of other things we could point to that are ALSO common denominators just as much or more-so than guns, that seem to be more closely tied to the root cause of these issues. I’m talking about topics like developing and maintaining in-person social skills, realistic ideas of what success and healthy values look like, learning to deal with failure, and teaching personal agency and responsibility. No silver bullet here, and nothing will happen quickly, but it took a long time to get into this pickle and I think it’s unrealistic—no matter what rights we trample—to get out of it quickly. I think we can start by demanding that our media and our political parties and politicians pick up an agenda that actually acknowledges and differentiates between the real various aspects of “gun violence” and addresses the causes of them and the realistic timeline for solutions, and acknowledges that in order to make a serious dent in these problems individual people are going to have to step up and take responsibility for the solutions, both proactively and defensively. I think we can also hold the dept of justice responsible for prosecuting more straw-purchases and illegal gun sales to people who are already barred from ownership--those are laws already on the books that everyone supports (edit: i.e. everyone supports keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and those already legally barred from ownership) and are weak or ineffective because there is very little enforcement in many cases (https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2018/p...raw-purchase-violations-depends-on-state-laws).
there. apologies for the rant, but I feel much better now.
Last edited:
Wyobohunter
WKR
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- Dec 23, 2021
- Messages
- 1,748
It doesn’t matter if it is a people problem or a gun problem. The guns will be taken away if we don’t do something toot f’in sweet. I wish I know what that something was, I don’t. I do know that so long as we scream at scapegoats we don’t actually look at the problem. Problems don’t generally solve themselves.
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- Banned
- #31
OP
OP
Newtosavage
WKR
No worries!
I'm not blaming the guns. I'm blaming the unfettered access to weapons that were designed for warfare.
I'm not blaming the guns. I'm blaming the unfettered access to weapons that were designed for warfare.
- Banned
- #32
OP
OP
Newtosavage
WKR
Haven't so far. I guess the NRA crowd is satisfied with their approach to staving off regulation (while watching dozens of more school shootings) since Columbine.
hunting1
WKR
Ban all the guns you want but until society gets their shit together (enforcing existing laws, moral stability, etc) shit isn't changing. There were guns every where 20-years ago and this crap wasn't happening. For you that want gun laws, bans, etc Happy Pride Month.
5MilesBack
"DADDY"
Great narrative "you" keep peddling, but "freedom and independence" and real Americans that fully support those, were around LONG before Fox ever existed. But your last statement is definitely true......that's the only way the left can keep getting people to vote left, because logic certainly isn't involved with that.
And as for the "current interpretation" of the 2A.......ya, if our education system keeps going the way it is, I am sure that most Americans will have trouble interpreting what "shall not be infringed" means. Just a few short years ago, even kindergarten students knew what that meant. These days some actual sitting members on the SCOTUS can't seem to figure that one out. So in time, ya.......our nation is doomed. But we've known that we've been circling the drain of the cesspool for awhile. That's why MAGA came about, so we could turn things around as a nation. There's still some hope in the near future when remotely normal folks get a glimpse of an administration like our current one. But long term......as I stated......we're doomed. But we already know how all this ends, and in the end "good" really does trump evil.
sodaksooner
WKR
Tough day here in Tulsa. The lady that was killed was the mother of one of my son's friends. They played JV and Varsity baseball together. We did not know them well, but sat by them many times at baseball games. She was very nice and by all accounts, all 4 people that were shot were good people. I am typically pretty thick skinned when it comes to these things, but obviously this one has hit me pretty hard.
I don't know what the answers are just like many here, but we need to get a handle on the mental health situation in this country and somehow start moving toward stronger nuclear families again. We need to drop the damn politics and figure something out.
However I'm a firm believer that in our current climate, once the news cycle dies down, nothing will happen of substance. It will all be window dressing
I don't know what the answers are just like many here, but we need to get a handle on the mental health situation in this country and somehow start moving toward stronger nuclear families again. We need to drop the damn politics and figure something out.
However I'm a firm believer that in our current climate, once the news cycle dies down, nothing will happen of substance. It will all be window dressing
Wyobohunter
WKR
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2021
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- 1,748
Guns are the common denominator because they are used in every mass shooting. Making that simple statement isn’t the same as saying guns are at fault. As you and several others have pointed out, guns are inanimate objects. If Ireland experienced the level of violence we’ve become numb to at the hands of angry drivers we could acknowledge the fact that cars are the common denominator but not the cause. They’d be right to figure out and work on the cause and foolish to blame things unrelated to driving.
Jaker_cc
WKR
I do know two family members of children that were killed. I know about 15 people from the community also. I’m just telling you how those people that I know feel.
How many family members or victims do you know from that community? You spoke for them first.
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- Banned
- #38
OP
OP
Newtosavage
WKR
Can you explain the difference in mass shootings between our country and others with more restrictive gun laws?
And what does someone loving someone else have to do with gun laws? Weird.
5MilesBack
"DADDY"
The left has been denying the problem and deflecting the cause to amoral inanimate tools for decades. Like I've said before.......that's like blaming forks and spoons (or the access to them) for our nation's obesity problem. Do you REALLY think that eliminating those tools or restricting access to them would fix the obesity problem????? Identifying the actual problem has become a difficult concept for the left. And that's not because it's difficult........it's because they have an agenda. They REFUSE to "go" to the real root problems. Otherwise their motives and actions would make more logical sense.
cuerro viejo
WKR
- Joined
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Lowes like fertilizer purchase killed 168 people and injured 650+Another same day AR-15 purchase.
Tulsa gunman bought an AR-15 the day of the mass shooting and targeted his doctor
The shooter had complained multiple times about pain following back surgery and sought additional treatment days before the attack, which left five people dead, including the gunman, police said.www.npr.org
You can’t regulate evil, it finds away. But then again that doesn’t fit your narrative.
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