Trying to make reloading easier.

[Frozenlead]

Overlay the targets?

Basically stacking multiple targets with groups on top of each other to simulate a larger shot group sample size. Gives you a better idea of the true cone of fire.

 

[Frozenlead]

Pretty much that the same load can look different depending on sample sizes

This



Can also look like this in a larger sample



And then this when back to a smaller sample size.

 

[SloppyJ]

I wouldn't be happy with those 3 shot groups either. For the most part, I find something that shoots around 1.5moa for 20 shots and im good. The problem is, with the 3 shot groups, you could have that 1.5moa group with 3 shots that are 1.5moa. Statistically, thats more rare but its possible and serves a point in this discussion.

However, I have had a couple of guns that really benefited from further gnats ass tweaking and now consistently put up crazy groups. My 300prc amazes me every time I go out and I spent a ton of time messing with it. It's the most precise gun I own.

Other guns, regardless of what I did, never got much better than that standard group size.

The thing is, shaving .25moa off of a group really isnt going to amount to anything though so it's really not worth wasting your time.

 

[Kirkpatrickforge]

.

 

[Caseknife]

I decided to try too methods of reloading last night for 2 diff rifles- my seeking ph2 7prc which I have previously had a load dialed in for- I did n570 w 195 bergers CCI 250s and hornady brass in a 10 shot string from .03 a over max and .03 increments below that x2 (2 strings of same load). Second rifle seeking ph3 in 6.5prc which I have not yet dev a load for but has about 90 rounds through her. I have developed 2 loads- 1 w h1000 and 1 w n568 both according to water volume capacity (can't remember the abbreviation off the top of my head). The system I'm attempting for these loads are 3 loads of each increment, 10 loads and ending at max according to my water volume max. So 30 rounds per load dev per powder test. Same bullet 143 eldx. Hope this is a better way. Its not 80+ bullets for one load dev. The only concern I have is hitting max pressure on the 1st shot fired. Thanks again for all your help fellas.

So, are you working in GRAMS or GRAINS? Your .03 increments, if in grams would equate to roughly .5 grain. The majority of us deal in grains. So, when you see for example 70.5gr, that is grains, obviously not grams unless you are loading a 50 BMG

 

[Durable Gun]

I know from the 'net that N570 and 195's is going to pressure out low to mid 70's. Knowing that, I shot that pressure spread from 66 to 72 grains and had ejector mark at 72. I then looked at the impacts and see 68 to 70 had little vertical. I'm going to shoot each side of 69, but you listed charges that were higher, so in your case, I would probably go to 70 but you need to shoot the pressure ladder to be sure. There's a thread on here and elsewhere about N570 and 195's in the 7PRC. You can get a feel for the charge weights people are using and where they see pressure.

Thank you!

So, are you working in GRAMS or GRAINS? Your .03 increments, if in grams would equate to roughly .5 grain. The majority of us deal in grains. So, when you see for example 70.5gr, that is grains, obviously not grams unless you are loading a 50 BMG

Grains

 

[Blurry1]

It was mentioned earlier but bears repeating. Hopefully you know what your barrel is capable of in accuracy. No need wasting components on a barrel that will never shoot to your expectations. If your shooting a 4” gun with factory ammo your never gonna make it a 1” gun.

 

[Durable Gun]

It was mentioned earlier but bears repeating. Hopefully you know what your barrel is capable of in accuracy. No need wasting components on a barrel that will never shoot to your expectations. If your shooting a 4” gun with factory ammo your never gonna make it a 1” gun.

Plenty capable

 

[Backwoods_wanderer]

Glad to hear it! I was concerned I was driving these guys nuts with my questions. I feel like in in the valley of despair when i cant fully grasp what these guys are trying to explain. Part of the journey.

It’s amazing how challenging it can be to grasp the context for a new hobby/skillset. Then eventually once the pieces fall into place, a lot of it clicks. Definitely helps having people that break it down and provide examples, at least for me.

 

[jfk69]

If you’re shooting 3 shot groups of loads with .03 difference in powder charge weight, you are accomplishing nothing other than burning through components. There is absolutely zero statistical validity with that model/method.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Hey folks,
I'm new to this site and about 4-5 years into reloading. I'm super passionate about it and lately digging a little deeper towards utilizing my time and energy correctly. See I've been originally taught to work up a load from min charge to max in 3 rounds per increments and going up .2 or .3 grains as I move up to max. I really feel like I'm wasting my time and components/money doing this. I want to start mid range of my charges but worry I will miss a really good sweet spot my rifle likes. I just now for the 1st time after reading about the method loaded a 10 shot ladder test for my 7prc using n570 and berger 195s. I started the load at 69.1g and ended in 75.5g with .2 and .3 increments. I made 2 identical batches of these to see if I get similar nodes with my chrono. Do most of you guys do this to look for a node near max pressure? Or do you guys do what I've been originally taught? Which in my case would use up 80+ rounds and essentially a full day of shooting. Also, is 100yards sufficient or am I not going to get enough data. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks kindly, Alex.

Ps- pls understand that I'm somewhat new to this science and lingo so somewhat layman's terms if you could. God bless from Canada.

You are absolutely wasting time, components and barrel life with that method, especially on a large capacity case like a 7PRC.

If your gun has such a narrow window that .2-.3 grains throws it out of precision, you need to get a new gun.


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[TaperPin]

For example, I should be happy with this... and I am. But... I want

Your 200 yard groups brought back memories of my first accurate 7 mag. After a decade of fine tuning my shooting style for small groups as much as possible, that 7mm was accurate enough that I had to question everything all over. Most things didn’t change, but I did firm up my grip a little and that alone made almost. 1/8 MOA reduction in groups. One thing I never quite understood was holding the forend while on sandbags also makes a positive difference, which is functionally a pain in the butt because the rear bag can’t be gripped for minor adjustments, but has to be positioned just right. With a light forend and decent recoil, the extra weight probably just settled into the front bag more consistently, or it’s some weird thing that relaxes me because the barrel doesn’t rise as much.

Extra accurate guns also benefit from fine tuning bedding. At every shot, even the little cartridges move the receiver back over the bedding during recoil and it rebounds and slides forward for the next shot a very small amount. Bouncing a palm sideways on the barrel at every shot will show any weakness in the bedding. If it does affect groups, adding paper shims between receiver and stock to lock it in better and repeating groups shows what improved bedding would do. Polyester bedding compounds shrink, and even pillars with too flat of a profile don’t hold the receiver as well as they could.

The downside to having too much fun at the range is burning out those fast moving 7mm barrels. Like black labs, they die much sooner than we’d like.

 

[wapitibob]

Just pointing out those are 1/2 moa groups at 300.

 

[Durable Gun]

You are absolutely wasting time, components and barrel life with that method, especially on a large capacity case like a 7PRC.

If your gun has such a narrow window that .2-.3 grains throws it out of precision, you need to get a new gun.


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I 100% get what you are saying. But if I'm being a "node chode" and I can find excellent SD/es at 70.3 grains for example but the SD/es is worst at 70.9, wouldn't my approach make this method significant? This is coming from a reloader that may deviate powder charge weights by .02 grains. Thanks for feedback of hard truth. I'm just trying to find out if you understand my meticulous ways a bit more- it would make a bit more sense doing what I'm doing. Regardless- I've already loaded up my rounds for today and there is no going back now. I'm leaving for the range in about an hour and I have already pulled 2 full 80 or so round batches since I started this thread. You can imagine my frustration. I see today's outcome as coming back 50/50 success / failure. The worst outcome today I can imagine is that I hit pressure on the 1st round. The best outcome is that I get good groups near max load with good SD/es at some increment in my batch. I hope I'm not completely lost at this point and it makes a little sense. Thanks to all of you for trying to help a brother out. I will get back with the data and share for those who are curious. God bless all y'all

 

[Mike D Texas]

I 100% get what you are saying. But if I'm being a "node chode" and I can find excellent SD/es at 70.3 grains for example but the SD/es is worst at 70.9, wouldn't my approach make this method significant? This is coming from a reloader that may deviate powder charge weights by .02 grains. Thanks for feedback of hard truth. I'm just trying to find out if you understand my meticulous ways a bit more- it would make a bit more sense doing what I'm doing. Regardless- I've already loaded up my rounds for today and there is no going back now. I'm leaving for the range in about an hour and I have already pulled 2 full 80 or so round batches since I started this thread. You can imagine my frustration. I see today's outcome as coming back 50/50 success / failure. The worst outcome today I can imagine is that I hit pressure on the 1st round. The best outcome is that I get good groups near max load with good SD/es at some increment in my batch. I hope I'm not completely lost at this point and it makes a little sense. Thanks to all of you for trying to help a brother out. I will get back with the data and share for those who are curious. God bless all y'all

No. There’s plenty of information you can find that chasing extremely low SD and to a lesser extent ES is a waste of time unless you are shooting at small targets for money.

Here’s an example. This rifle shot a slightly under MOA group at 1 mile. 60ES/16SD. 6 shots on target at 1 mile including first round hit.

I’ve been exactly where you are and it took me a long time to get over it, but I enjoy the process and the more shooting more than ever since learning it’s just not worth it for hunting or recreational target shooting/practice.


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[seand]

I thought from the thread title you wanted to make this easier.

Pick a middle of the road charge weight and shoot a 10-20 shot group. If it doesn’t shoot well, change bullets or powder.

Easy approach. Forget fine tuning charge weight, forget nodes and ladders.

If it shoots, and you want to shoot closer to max, just add powder until you match book velocity. Velocity is pressure. Read the manual, figure out how much powder to add to hit your target velocity via basic algebra, shoot 10 over chrono to verify and start cranking out ammo.

 

[TimberHunter]

I’ve been exactly where you are and it took me a long time to get over it, but I enjoy the process and the more shooting more than ever since learning it’s just not worth it for hunting or recreational target shooting/practice.


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This x1000. I’ve been there too and just recently saw the light earlier this year. I used to be just like the OP and I wasted so many components at 100 yards.

It may be one of those things that people just have to learn on their own. Can tell them, they just have to struggle for a few years and they’ll eventually see the light. Or give up lol


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[Caseknife]

Still trying to wrap my mind around changing charge weight by .02-.03gr. Lowest I have ever gone is .3gr and that is in a case that only holds about 30 gr max. Mag cases I will go in 1 gr increments to pressure, medium case size .5 gr. Anything less than .3 gr is a waste of time/components/and barrel life in my mind.

 

[Durable Gun]

Ok guys, I get it a bit better now. Went to range today. Got lucky? i guess with the method I used today. My Seekins PH3 rifle with about 100 rounds through her previously. So I assume the barrel is broken in at this point. I started at 57.6 grains of N568 and up to my case fill of 60.3 grains. 3 grain increments (I know I know). I will approach it differently next time in 1 grain increments to save time and components and my sanity. My new gun was shooting like shit for a bit and I almost quit the N568 batch because I thought my rifle just didn't like it (I'm talking 2-4" groups at 100m). I checked the action screws before putting that batch away and they where completely loose. Shot the rest and all groups vastly improved. They weren't screamers but, the sd and es where top shelf (I know I know). Still-

 

[Durable Gun]

Thanks again for all your help fellas! Especially you TaperPin! You're a sweetheart!