Trophy bull and a trespass charge

[alexnelon]

Poaching, not poaching. It's Semantics.

If states dont tie trespassing to hunt into hunting violations, a $200 misdemeanor isn't going to discourage the act much and you're going to push landowners into using these civil suits that people are upset about to discourage trespassing.

Basic criminal trespass in Wyoming carries up to 6 months in jail and if that's what this guy did he should get the whole thing. That's way more than I'd care to trade for a big bull.

I'm just adamantly opposed to giving any legal precedent to tying hunting violations into anything that was done illegally, but adjacent to, a legal act.

If you run a red light to get to the bank before they close, and you take out $1,500 of your money from your account that you legally have a right to but wouldn't have gotten if you didn't break the law to get to the bank in time, should you be charged with running the red or robbing the bank?

Should the county be able to sue you for that $1,500? They don't own it or have any legal right to it, but you committed a crime against them on the way to get it.

Semantics, or bank robbery?

 

[gbflyer]

From the article;

Wyoming has two types of trespassing statutes: Title 6, basic criminal trespass, and Title 23, hunting-related trespass.
Monger was cited for allegedly violating the latter.
In either case, a violation is a misdemeanor.
Title 23 trespass is punishable by fines up to $1,000, loss of hunting privileges, and possible seizure of firearms or harvested game.
Title 23 trespass reports are handled by game wardens. Title 6 trespass reports must be handled by a sheriff’s deputy and carry up to a $750 fine.
Under Title 6, landowners are required to post the property, and/or give allegedtrespassers a warning.
Under Title 23, there are no such requirements for landowners. Hunters, anglers and shed antler hunters bear sole responsibility for knowing where they are at all times, and for avoiding straying on to private land.

That’s what I read as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[gbflyer]

Agreed. But I would bet that most of the people on here defending trespassing don't own a pot to piss in so they want something for nothing. Typical socialist idealism.

I don’t know about that. But I do know a little bit about land management on a much smaller scale. I certainly don’t appreciate uninvited guests. None of them are around when it’s time to fix the road or trim the brush lol.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Basic criminal trespass in Wyoming carries up to 6 months in jail and if that's what this guy did he should get the whole thing. That's way more than I'd care to trade for a big bull.

I'm just adamantly opposed to giving any legal precedent to tying hunting violations into anything that was done illegally, but adjacent to, a legal act.

If you run a red light to get to the bank before they close, and you take out $1,500 of your money from your account that you legally have a right to but wouldn't have gotten if you didn't break the law to get to the bank in time, should you be charged with running the red or robbing the bank?

Should the county be able to sue you for that $1,500? They don't own it or have any legal right to it, but you committed a crime against them on the way to get it.

Semantics, or bank robbery?

Semantics. The legislature already handled that question when they passed the law with more severe penalties and a higher standard for hunters.

It’s hard to defend the trespasser in any legal way. The more I think about the story… this guy has basically admitted to targeting this particular bull elk for four years. I already dislike that. Not my style. Which presumably means four years of trespassing to get to it. I have less and less sympathy for him every time I think about it. And then bragging about it in the local paper… Like I said above, if you want to be Robin Hood poaching the king’s deer in the King’s forest, you have to be doing it for food.

And at least be clever. If you leave a trail of cut locks behind you, you deserve to get the book thrown at you. That’s egregious. None of the trespassers I caught ever cut the fence to get to my land. They uniformly lied about not seeing the posted signs (which were every 25 yards along the entire border, which was also fenced), but at least they didn’t cut the fence or gates to get in.

 

[wind gypsy]

Basic criminal trespass in Wyoming carries up to 6 months in jail and if that's what this guy did he should get the whole thing. That's way more than I'd care to trade for a big bull.

I'm just adamantly opposed to giving any legal precedent to tying hunting violations into anything that was done illegally, but adjacent to, a legal act.

If you run a red light to get to the bank before they close, and you take out $1,500 of your money from your account that you legally have a right to but wouldn't have gotten if you didn't break the law to get to the bank in time, should you be charged with running the red or robbing the bank?

Should the county be able to sue you for that $1,500? They don't own it or have any legal right to it, but you committed a crime against them on the way to get it.

Semantics, or bank robbery?

So do you suspect the courts will understand the difference of impact on the landowner between trespassers shooting monster bulls and pissing in the ditch just outside of the ROW and sentence appropriately? I dont. Speeding to get to the bank, speeding to bang the mrs while there's still time, speeding to get to work on time, all impact the surrounding public the same. Not the case with trespassing to hunt vs pissing in the ditch.

 

[acooper1983]

Pretty soon there will be a drone large enough to lift a person (there already are but not mass produced) thats gonna really chap land owners asses when guys are flying themselves into landlocked BLM land, shooting a monster, and then flying it out.

 

[alexnelon]

Semantics. The legislature already handled that question when they passed the law with more severe penalties and a higher standard for hunters.

It’s hard to defend the trespasser in any legal way. The more I think about the story… this guy has basically admitted to targeting this particular bull elk for four years. I already dislike that. Not my style. Which presumably means four years of trespassing to get to it. I have less and less sympathy for him every time I think about it. And then bragging about it in the local paper… Like I said above, if you want to be Robin Hood poaching the king’s deer in the King’s forest, you have to be doing it for food.

And at least be clever. If you leave a trail of cut locks behind you, you deserve to get the book thrown at you. That’s egregious. None of the trespassers I caught ever cut the fence to get to my land. They uniformly lied about not seeing the posted signs (which were every 25 yards along the entire border, which was also fenced), but at least they didn’t cut the fence or gates to get in.

"In order to be convicted of Game and Fish trespass, a person must hunt, fish, trap on private property without permission." - WGFD

If he trespassed 4 times, give him 2 years in jail.

 

[Dos Perros]

Pretty soon there will be a drone large enough to lift a person (there already are but not mass produced) thats gonna really chap land owners asses when guys are flying themselves into landlocked BLM land, shooting a monster, and then flying it out.

This is why I am personally against land exchanges that aren't truly equal. The future value to the public of the landlocked land is certain to increase because of technological advancements like what you're mentioning.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

My favorite trespassers ever were the guys our farmhand caught with fishing poles about 200 yards from our trout pond (about half a mile into our property). They said they were “just scouting for turkeys.” To which our man replied, “with a fishing pole and a cooler? And… also how does that make it any better?” Given that they were grownups and not kids, I wanted my dad to prosecute them, but he didn’t want the additional bad blood that would cause. I think that was a mistake. They eventually fished out all the trout in the pond.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

"In order to be convicted of Game and Fish trespass, a person must hunt, fish, trap on private property without permission." - WGFD

If he trespassed 4 times, give him 2 years in jail.

Misdemeanor sentences are going to run concurrently almost all the time. Unless someone wants to have four different trials. And even then, they will probably end up concurrent.

 

[wapitibob]

There are 2 state land parcels that have a county road going thru them and bisecting the western 1/3 of the ranch. If the guy hunted any other state land next to the ranch he clearly trespassed to get there. The fact he declined to identify the state land parcel he hunted is a clear indication he trespassed.

 

[alexnelon]

So do you suspect the courts will understand the difference of impact on the landowner between trespassers shooting monster bulls and pissing in the ditch just outside of the ROW and sentence appropriately? I dont. Speeding to get to the bank, speeding to bang the mrs while there's still time, speeding to get to work on time, all impact the surrounding public the same. Not the case with trespassing to hunt vs pissing in the ditch.

I don't expect the courts to understand anything with nuance, but I also don't expect or approve of people getting charged for things that aren't against the law, like shooting big bulls on public land with a valid tag, just because they did something else that was illegal on the way.

I don't want to come across like I'm defending this guy, because he sucks and I don't approve of anything he did. I just don't see any legal standing for wildlife charges or liability related to the potential value of commerce related to wildlife.

 

[Dos Perros]

I don't expect the courts to understand anything with nuance, but I also don't expect or approve of people getting charged for things that aren't against the law, like shooting big bulls on public land with a valid tag, just because they did something else that was illegal on the way.

Well...driving from Montana to North Dakota is legal. But transporting game taken illegally in Montana to North Dakota isn't...it'd be a Lacey Act violation.

 

[alexnelon]

Well...driving from Montana to North Dakota is legal. But transporting game taken illegally in Montana to North Dakota isn't...it'd be a Lacey Act violation.

Speeding to North Dakota from Montana wouldn't turn a legal bull into a Lacey Act violation though.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

"In order to be convicted of Game and Fish trespass, a person must hunt, fish, trap on private property without permission." - WGFD

This is what people seem to be missing. He’s being charged with the more serious Title 23 trespassing offense. Which means the state will have to prove not just the trespassing, but also the kill on private land. Either the state has mischarged the offense, or the trespasser actually killed the bull on private land. Even if he thought he was on public land, if they can prove he killed that bull on private property, he’s screwed. And justifiably.

 

[WCB]

Speeding to North Dakota from Montana wouldn't turn a legal bull into a Lacey Act violation though.

If he got in illegally he had to get out illegally with the bull or parts of it. Would that not be illegally transporting game or be part of the "hunt" therefore he illegally hunted on private property. You don't have to kill anything to be "hunting".

 

[alexnelon]

If he got in illegally he had to get out illegally with the bull or parts of it. Would that not be illegally transporting game or be part of the "hunt" therefore he illegally hunted on private property. You don't have to kill anything to be "hunting".

Nope. Not any more than cutting across your neighbor's yard with jerky in your pocket would be.

What he did was pretty objectively wrong, but you can't just add poaching charges because he went hunting after.

 

[LongWayAround]

This is what people seem to be missing. He’s being charged with the more serious Title 23 trespassing offense. Which means the state will have to prove not just the trespassing, but also the kill on private land. Either the state has mischarged the offense, or the trespasser actually killed the bull on private land. Even if he thought he was on public land, if they can prove he killed that bull on private property, he’s screwed. And justifiably.

I would ask if he "hunted" his way across the private to eventually kill the animal on a public parcel.

I imagine that he drove all or most of the way. Given the general appearance, I doubt this guy hiked in and packed out six miles

Even so, it would seem that the game violation trespass applies because of the intent to hunt.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I would ask if he "hunted" his way across the private to eventually kill the animal on a public parcel.

I imagine that he drove all or most of the way. Given the general appearance, I doubt this guy hiked in and packed out six miles

Even so, it would seem that the game violation trespass applies because of the intent to hunt.

Yeah old boy was for sure backing the truck up to load that bull up, you don’t look like that and make 6 mile each way packout outs, that’s easily 5-6 trips with a bull that size, 400 plus pounds of meat and antler… dudes not hiking 60+ miles like that

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I would ask if he "hunted" his way across the private to eventually kill the animal on a public parcel.

I imagine that he drove all or most of the way. Given the general appearance, I doubt this guy hiked in and packed out six miles

Even so, it would seem that the game violation trespass applies because of the intent to hunt.

The way the actual statute is written supports that reading of the law.

https://law.justia.com/codes/wyoming/title-23/chapter-3/article-3/section-23-3-305/#:~:text=(b)%20No%20person%20shall%20enter,of%20the%20landowner%20or%20lessee.&text=Disclaimer:%20These%20codes%20may%20not,Please%20check%20official%20sources.

(b) No person shall enter upon, travel through or return across the private property of any person to take wildlife, hunt, fish, collect antlers or horns, or trap without the permission of the owner or person in charge of the property. Violation of this subsection constitutes a low misdemeanor punishable as provided in W.S. 23-6-202(a)(v). For purposes of this subsection "travel through or return across" requires physically touching or driving on the surface of the private property.

The statute does not say that the "taking" must occur on the private property. That puts a slightly different twist on it than what was quoted above.