Trespassing, or not!

[wapitibob]

The section was probably a DOT parcel when the first OR map was made, then was traded to the current LO in a swap. Unless OnX gets a list of ownership changes on a scheduled basis they would have no way to stay on top of them.

 

[WRO]

If it goes to court, pm me and ill get you official maps..

 

[1hoda]

CPW DWM was helping me last fall. I pulled out my paper map and GPS with CO Onyx chip. He showed me his Garmin Montana with the same chip and told me it might not be perfect but that's what he's using. He said the state issued one to him and every other officer for that reason - do the math on that one- they must be pretty serious about it.

I don't go anywhere without both paper map and gps with the chip. I start with the map and look for confirmation from gps, if they don't match I go somewhere else.

 

[freediver111]

-This was in Grant County OR
-There were no signs, and we were beside a fairly major road, and the BLM also crossed a river (we crossed the river in a canoe). No signs anywhere to indicate it was BLM, or that it was private. We already established that where we started on the road was BLM and it extended across the river as a corner.
-Tax lot maps are available online here, but you have to call the assessor office to verify who owns a lot of you have questions.
-I believe what happened after looking at the tax map some more is that there is a small piece of DOT land adjacent to a larger piece of private. I think maybe Onxmaps either lumped the two together, or the county screwed up and gave them the wrong info for these two tax lots.

I'm still waiting to see if a citation is given. I guess I don't really have to hire a lawyer. If I get cited I could plead not guilty and just state my case. Not sure if that's a good idea since I'm not that well versed at playing lawyer.

 

[2ski]

I'm guessing the officer that told you that you should have done more in due dilligance was just covering his own a$$. If he told you that he thought you were good, then if a citation is issued, he has to go say he thought you were good. This way, he's clear.

 

[wyosteve]

Just 2 comments on the reference to the Ore. statute. First, it relates to liquidated damaged the landowner may receive for trespassing, and, subsection 2 says, a landowner 'may' close private land by posting, it does not mandate posting. Just my .02!

 

[Murdy]

I haven't looked up the actual Oregon trespassing statute (the criminal law one), but if its like most other states, intent is not an element of the offense (like most traffic violations) either you are trespassing or you are not, so due diligence isn't a consideration in whether you broke the law. However, if you get cited and want to fight it and can prove the steps you took to try to ensure you weren't trespassing, you could talk to the prosecutor prior to trial, explain the situation to him or her, and hope you can convince the prosecutor not to pursue the case (they have absolute discretion in these matters / but many are also politicians, so you never know). Due diligence, in itself though, is probably not a defense to the offense.
If it goes to trial, the burden will be on the State to prove you were trespassing, so presumably it will have to prove ownership, so expect them to bring forth some evidence of ownership (could just be testimony of someone claiming ownership, though), so be prepared to refute that evidence.

 

[cuerro viejo]

If it were me, I'd document everything along with names of people you've spoken to at the various agencies. Sounds like you've certainly done due diligence. Even if it comes back that it being private and they cite you, I'd fight it just on principle or at least talk with the land owner with hat in hand about dropping charges, showing your intent was never to trespass. Never appear before a judge with a chip on your shoulder, but with a respective attitude showing your intent was never malicious. By letter of the law that may not get you out of it but you will feel better having tried. And like was posted above, some states require it be posted if it was private. That's NOT the case where I'm at in Nebraska but it's 99% (??) private land here.

I regret having not had my wife fight a speeding ticket 15 years ago that was false. My wife never speeds and had never had a ticket of any kind. After being stopped at a red light she was allegedly clocked one block later doing 56. I was with her and saw the cop when at the light and said watch your speed in the next block. When she got pulled over I thought maybe she had a tail light out or something and then cop says you're doing 56 in a 25! I got pissed, which didn't help matters... Nothing worse than being ticketed for something you didn't do. Only pleasure we got from that was the cop was later fired for many "issues" and left town. Moral of the story, plead your case if it comes down to it or possibly live with the regret of not trying.

This ^^^. By the letter of the law if it is indeed private you can be cited. You have to remember that LEO's don't have a choice if it's private and landowner pushes hard with that said that's why we have a juridical system, it's up to judge's and jury to determine intent and this and that. Showing that you truly had not intent to trespass will go along ways with a jury.

Document everything especially on the trooper side. "IF" it's standard process for the state guys to use same software, judge and jury and DA are going to have a hard time convicting, and it will most likely get dropped or reduced.

 

[jmez]

I don't think "intent" is really relevant. Intent is more for civil matters, not an excuse for breaking a law. This would never go to a jury trial, it would just be before a judge. The judge may throw it out but private property laws are pretty clear. It is 100% your responsibility to know where the boundaries/property lines lie.

There are also plattes at every single courthouse. You can go in and look at the official platte and see who owns the land. Not all of these are online, you may have to go to the courthouse.

 

[ChrisS]

Meh, I'm not in the west, especially on/near ranch land and I don't trespass, but if someone is really pissy (to the point that they push an issue weeks afterwards) about someone trespassing inadvertently, the least they can do is throw up some no trespassing signs or mark property boundaries in common problem areas. No reason to be an a**hole is if something isn't clearly delineated based on how the ranch manager handled it. We get that a lot around here where someone will buy the smallest parcel possible (~1 acre) next to the public land tract and then get all hot and bothered when people come close or inadvertently cross on to their unmarked property.

If you are on private property, you are, by definition, trespassing; however that doesn't mean that it need rise to a violation, it means that you are in the wrong and can legally be removed from the property.

I don't know how large the parcel in question is, but some state DOT sites can be just right-of-ways or leases (like a gravel/salt staging area), which can confuse the ownership issue. Also, as an FYI, some of the online property databases take as long as 2-3 years to update. My friend's father-in-law passed away six years ago and the property is still in his father-in-law's name on the online database.

 

[GotDraw?]

I would bet that "Detrimental Reliance" is your defense...
You purchased and relied upon the most accurate system you could have.

JL

 

[roknHS]

I don't think ONYX updates are very thorough or accurate where ownership of land is concerned. I have land bordering my property that changed hands 8yrs ago and has been recorded at the county assessors office.............ONYX 2015 still shows the old ownership.

Not sure their updates are worth much...............

 

[freediver111]

I'm sure that if I do get cited, this won't go to a jury. I'll plead my case to a judge. This is a misdemeanor I believe.
I could forgo a lawyer and just try to plead not guilty and state my case. Not sure if that's foolish or not.

While I am a little concerned, I really hope this doesn't go any further. The first sheriff deputy told me it sounded like I performed due diligence and that I shouldn't worry. It's the other deputy that told me having onxmaps may not be due diligence that got me worried, although I still find it ironic State fish and game uses onX, and he relied on them to tell him we were standing on BLM. Plus the ranch manager told me it was state land, so there seems to some confusion all around. Maybe it's a good thing this happened so we all walk away with a little more knowledge.

I'll update you when I hear more.

 

[The John]

Good luck, hope it turns out for the best.

 

[elkbowkevin]

The rancher told you himself that it was state land and the OSP officer showed the same. That there is evidence that you are in the clear IMHO and the rancher has no cause to prosecute.

I sat on a jury about trespassing (private building not land case) and the DA said: from reading the ORS law. in order to be convicted for trespass, you have to be informed of the trespass, told to leave by the owner or agent of the owner, and also told that if you are seen again on said property that you can be cited and arrested for trespass.
The order of steps were not followed in this case and the defendants got off on that charge.
Dont know if the steps for criminal trespass are the same for land or not but, A the land needs to be posted, you did your due diligence in good faith, did NOT intend to trespass, and the rancher said the land you were on was state land.

I can believe that in Grant County this is a BIG issue as there is alot of pvt land down by the river, the guides, outfitters, and owners are REALLY aggressive about who is on the land, and what they are doing. Shed hunting is HUGE out there as one can get $15 a pound for sheds, TP is a huge problem out there. And I can sympathize with the Land owners about land hoppers out shed hunting especially with the amount of deer that are wintering within a mile of that river.

A friend just bought 260 acres and a cabin just west of Mt Vernon. We were out there checking the place out last week while we were on hunt. Cool area, not many signs on the fenced either. LOL

 

[Jason Snyder]

Trespassing is not as black and white as many of you would make it out to be. To state that you are "trespassing" if you are on private land is simply false in many states. Oftentimes trespass laws are written such that a "reasonable person" would know that they are land that they would not be entitled to access. In layman's terms, would a common person be able to look at the situation and definitively think that the land before them is not open to the public. This can be through agricultural use, the presence of buildings, fencing, signage, or other indicia of occupancy.

Per the Oregon Code:

(3) Enter or remain unlawfully meansa) To enter or remain in or upon premises when the premises, at the time of such entry or remaining, are not open to the public or when the entrant is not otherwise licensed or privileged to do so;
(b) To fail to leave premises that are open to the public after being lawfully directed to do so by the person in charge;
(c) To enter premises that are open to the public after being lawfully directed not to enter the premises; or
(d) To enter or remain in a motor vehicle when the entrant is not authorized to do so.
(4) Open to the public means premises which by their physical nature, function, custom, usage, notice or lack thereof or other circumstances at the time would cause a reasonable person to believe that no permission to enter or remain is required.

I am not an attorney, and I am not giving legal advice, but I think that given the circumstances it would be nearly impossible to be convicted of trespassing in this particular instance.

 

[elkguide]

MY OPINION, you are in a good position.
Be sure that you have EVERYTHING written down, with times and dates.
Any names that you have, be sure to write them down.

Your case will be a lot stronger, if you are sure of the facts, if it even goes anywhere.

 

[freediver111]

Well, so far no word and it will be 2 weeks this Thursday since the deputy came to my house to discuss it.
I did call last week and left him a message to see if there was a need for my friend to give a testimony, and no call back.
I assume this is fairly dead in the water, but you never know.

 

[duchntr]

Im not from OR but i wouldn't be worried in the slightest. I would however go get ahold of some blm platting maps as others recommended, and if you were indeed in the right i would continue going to the spot and not be bullied by some a-hole who feels entitled to public land.

 

[Drifli]

I'm not in Oregon but in California you need to do the research in the County surveyors office. The online maps don't keep up with land transfers and sales. Last year two big tracks of land became public in an area I hunt, online the maps showed them still privately owned, also the Feds have been swapping private land for federal land in certain areas and unless you are aware your old hunting spot just became private land overnight.