Training for The Uphill Athlete Scott Johnston New Hunting Podcast

[Ironman8]

Yes. Many of the higher/highest level Crossfit athletes/coaches have caught on to this and are adopting zone 2 building blocks. You still won't see it at your neighborhood Crossfit box because it doesn't fit the format, though.

You need to spend the majority of your training doing the thing you are training to do. For a hunter, this is hiking. At a minimum, you need to do it under your own body weight with a lot of your time spent on an incline. Because biking and rowing are seated, they are less than optimal. Better than nothing, but should only be a minimal part of your zone 2 conditioning.



Yes. Strength progression will be slower, perhaps much slower, even painfully slower at times, but it can be done. You have to temper your expectations when compared to aggressive strength programs. You can, however, get a jump on strength progression during the off season with the mindset that you may very well stall or get weaker once your conditioning volume increases to a certain point. The more training volume you add, the more you'll have to manage your strength training volume. This will become more critical at around 35 years old, again mid to late 40s and yet again around 55-60+ with potential significant adjustments for volume and recovery at each threshold. Genetics, training history, nutrition, recovery management will all play roles in this.

If you really want to compete in the Crossfit games, cool (That's so 2014, but you do you). If you want to excel at endurance, you should immediately suspend all Crossfit once the games are completed and dedicate your focus to endurance supported by strength training. Do that through hunting season and then switch back to Crossfit games prep for an offseason activity. Doing both will invariably end up being a disaster. Guaranteed.

Tactical (Tac) Games...not Crossfit Games lol

Overall, I don't disagree with much you said and is similar to above responses. It will be a juggling act to periodize this optimally but hopefully I can increase the volume and recover as needed to fit what I need in.

Right now I'm starting with 30-60 minutes Zone 2 in the early AM, then a lift in the PM

 

[mtnbound]

General questions for you guys that have been doing Zone 2 training AND have experience in higher intensity training such as Crossfit.

QUESTIONS:
1) Will Zone 2 training do anything to help highly anaerobic work that you'd typically see in a crossfit "WOD"? Or are they totally different pathways and won't necessarily help each other?
2) Can you train Zone 2 with different modalities (walk/run, bike, or rower) to keep the total impact and wear and tear on your body in check and have the same effect as only doing one modality (higher impact walk/hike/run)?
3) Can heavy weightlifting be programmed while increasing Z2 time/mileage?

CONTEXT:
My background is collegiate ball sports where strength and speed was more of a factor than long/slow work...so much so that I have almost NEVER done anything longer than 20-30 minutes of cardio, which generally consisted of intervals or higher intensity runs, and hardly ever more than a few miles. Heavy lifting and Crossfit style workouts have always been the norm. I've been backcountry hunting since 2014 and I think I do pretty well due to the strength and ruck prep I do pre-season, but I definitely get gassed fast and just have to gut it out.

I literally just started my Z2 training this week as I discovered the Evoke programming recently and feel like it may be the missing piece. That said, I still want to maintain (or increase) strength and muscular endurance because I'm also starting to compete in the Tac Games (I know, totally different than a marathon or backcountry hunting). I'm about 17 weeks out from my first competition and the questions above are rolling around in my head because I don't want to risk shifting majority of training to aerobic work and then totally kill the anaerobic side that will be needed for the Tac Games.

Based on my experience.
#1. Two different energy systems and you need anaerobic work to get used to dealing with the strain it causes but a bigger motor allows for faster recovery.
#2. Yes, this is the best method for all around performance and the most likely method to be successful at continuing Z2 work. Yes, you need to do sport specific work like rucking but multi-modality work reduces overuse issues.
#3. Yes, it’s concurrent training. I do strength or dynamic days followed by Z2 days for recovery. I also do short sessions of anaerobic training on my dynamic days. Is this best for someone wanting to be the best at their sport, no, but I workout to be prepared for everyday life not just hunting.

 

[Willie IV]

For those who are doing several Z2 training sessions per week (5-6 hrs) and want to incorporate some strength training, when have you implemented the strength sessions? I'm leaning towards 2 days of full body workouts for strength. Assume this is from someone who is just beginning to build their aerobic capacity.

Are you doing them...
- before/after Z2
- different days than Z2
- doing one in the morning and the other in the afternoon

Or.... should I just focus on Z2 and my aerobic base for a certain period and then work some strength training in later???

 

[NealS02]

This was a great podcast, Cliff, and I appreciate you picking super relevant topics that ultimately make us all better. Last year, I had been focused on primarily high intensity interval training and running. I noticed my endurance was lacking though my strength was good during my hunt this past season. This off-season I’ve already started dedicating more time to sustained zone two/three cardio. My default is pushing myself with the highest heart rate with the heaviest weight and moving as fast as possible, which he notes in the podcast to be not the appropriate training method for mountain hunting with over utilizing/training the anaerobic system. I plan on reading his book in the near future and felt as though the podcast was super beneficial. Thanks!

 

[LCguy]

Everyone way overthinks all of this. You want to get better at walking up a mountain? Walk up a mountain/simulate walking up a mountain regularly. Want to get better at carrying heavy weight on your back? Ruck. Do you want your joints and muscles to feel good and recover quickly so you can climb mountains for days and days and days? Add strength training. Here is what I do, and I can climb mountains with the best of them:

3x/week full-body strength-training program (I use Jeff Nippard's programs with some modifications).
Those three days, I do the stairstepper at a moderate (Level 4-6) speed for 20 minutes.
Rest days from lifting I do the staristepper at a moderate pace for 30-40 minutes.
I take one full rest day a week from lifting and cardio.
12 weeks out from hunts, I do a 5-mile rucking loop with significant elevation gain with a 50-pound pack once a week.

Zone 2 training is certainly a useful tool, but is very overemphasized. Learn to train hard, then worry about heart rate numbers. More importantly, learn your own thresholds. You may need more full rest days than me, you may need no full rest days at all. Program a deload every eight weeks or so. More important than any heart rate number is your consistency. A guy who works hard consistently is going to see better results than a guy who inconsistently trains exclusively in Zone 2.

 

[Poser]

For those who are doing several Z2 training sessions per week (5-6 hrs) and want to incorporate some strength training, when have you implemented the strength sessions? I'm leaning towards 2 days of full body workouts for strength. Assume this is from someone who is just beginning to build their aerobic capacity.

Are you doing them...
- before/after Z2
- different days than Z2
- doing one in the morning and the other in the afternoon

Or.... should I just focus on Z2 and my aerobic base for a certain period and then work some strength training in later???

I do two full body strength sessions per week in a Heavy-Light set up on Tuesday and Thursday.
In some cases, such as squatting, "light" is a percentage offload from "heavy". In other cases, it involves less stressful variant -for example, bench press is "heavy", overhead press is by comparison "light". or deadlift is "heavy", barbell rows are by comparison in generated stress, "light" even when the lift itself is "heavy" (barbell rows are a less stressful subordinate lift to the deadlift).

Tuesday will be the more stressful "heavy" day with Thursday being "light" in terms of comparative stress to Tuesday.

I find this balances well for me. I do often do some shorter/less stressful zone 2 later in the day on Tuesday after lifting. I also always have dedicated longer/more stressful zone 2 sessions on Wednesday. And often again on Fridays. The weekends are the big variable that I work around and manage recovery in anticipation for and after on Monday, occasionally affecting Tuesday as well: A big weekend of backpacking in and out of the backcountry to hit an alpine lake, scout or bag a peak, may be treated differently than a weekend where I go resort skiing one day and backcountry skiing the next. Or, a weekend spent turkey hunting, may be far less fatiguing than a weekend spent elk hunting. Some weekends, I get crushed with fatigue, others are comparatively moderate.

I do take a couple of blocks here and there where I just focus on strength training 3x a week for 1-2, occasionally 3 weeks at a time. When I get those windows, I can usually get some good gains to carry over into blocks more focused on conditioning.

 

[mtnbound]

For those who are doing several Z2 training sessions per week (5-6 hrs) and want to incorporate some strength training, when have you implemented the strength sessions? I'm leaning towards 2 days of full body workouts for strength. Assume this is from someone who is just beginning to build their aerobic capacity.

Are you doing them...
- before/after Z2
- different days than Z2
- doing one in the morning and the other in the afternoon

Or.... should I just focus on Z2 and my aerobic base for a certain period and then work some strength training in later???

I do my strength or speed days on their own and do Z2 work on a separate day. At one point in my life, I did 2-a-day workouts: strength/speed in the AM, then a conditioning workout (Z2/3) 8-10 hours later. If you are going to do 2-a-days, I would recommend finding a coach to help with proper programming, nutrition, and other aspects.

 

[LCguy]

If you are going to do 2-a-days, I would recommend finding a coach to help with proper programming, nutrition, and other aspects.

This right here. Very important to have professional guidance if you are going to push this hard.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Scott, Steve, and every other Z2 proponent have done a great job getting their methodologies to the masses- no doubt about it. I've read, love, and purchased copies of them for our own clients and group.

But, this is far less about there being some magic formula/training zone and more about the sum of the parts: find the right mix of easy, moderate, and hard over time. Assuming that's above what you've already been used to doing- and it sounds like much of this concept is brand new to some of us- and you'll reap a noticeable reward. Sure, more is better, but that might also mean 2-3-4 hours leading into your hunt reaps massive rewards if you've been doing none of this up until now.

A single 8-12 week block may look like this:
View attachment 1007327
You can see where this is WAY above what the usual way.
You can see where it was gradual- not a linear rocket ship up to 2x the volume.
You can see where there were periods of recovery for a week to absorb the volume.
(If you could zero in further) you would see where this is WAY below the "ideal" volume "needed" for Z2 to "work".

Even though not "ideal" (15-20 hours), you can see where practical is still highly effective when above your norm:
View attachment 1007326
The second year of training like this carried further than my first because there was a base to build from. There are some more thoughts and ideas included in the image and the arrows.

Also, Z2 proponents aren't saying "never do hard, high-intense workouts!" They're saying there is a place, time, and reason to add those, but they're not the thing (as many have been accustomed to believing).

Strength training and recovery as vital parts too as they're the foundation in which ALL this volume rests.

Having a plan is great, but knowing flexibility IN that plan is important too or you end up with diminishing returns from turning the jets on too much.

TLDR: It goes without saying that 20-minutes won't put you in "Zone 2". At the same time, don't let the recommended volume scare you away from trying it at all. Keep the general rule of thumb, challenge your normal dedicated time to fitness (i.e. give a little more time to it than usual), but still make it realistic. Be consistent. You'll reap the reward.

PS: This thread epitomizes when it's worth hiring a coach. A decent understanding of the basics doesn't mean a high degree of confidence and certainty. A good coach will help you navigate your questions and provide explanation in a way that makes you understand it so well that you couldn't NOT buy in. The difference is then have a high degree of confidence what what you're doing will work and that makes the work easier to commit to.

Meh. looks like about any other endurance program used for triathlons, marathons etc. I think it's just more visible now that people are training for things other than races. 20 years ago there really wasn't many if any training programs for climbers, skiers etc, Mark Twight was into it a long time ago and came out with that book "extreme alpinism" which was great, he went on to be a coach for climbers and other endurance athletes.

The problem with all that zone 2 is that for most people, it doesnt leave much time for anything else. It's great if tha s all you're doing otherwise you have to be really committed. When I was racing, I'd train ~25 hours a week. I wasn't married though, lived in an apartment and it was nothing for me to get off work at 3 and ride for 3 hours. Now, with work, property, home, everything else, Im lucky to get 6-7 hours of training in a week and the only way I get more is if I go hiking or something on the weekend because training more than an hour most days just doesn't happen and training over 90 minutes is rare anymore.

I've also seen successful rowing coaches say zone 2 isn't that useful unless you are really putting in the volume, its not that effective for somebody doing 3 hours of cardio per week.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

This right here. Very important to have professional guidance if you are going to push this hard.

I disagree but I've been training for 20+years.

There really isn't much to 2 a days, if you can't figure out your nutrition or things get weird for you because you added a second workout then its probably not for you. I do 2 a days fairly often and one of the workouts is usually a short/moderate cardio session, hardly something to consult a coach about.

 

[LCguy]

I disagree but I've been training for 20+years.

There really isn't much to 2 a days, if you can't figure out your nutrition or things get weird for you because you added a second workout then its probably not for you. I do 2 a days fairly often and one of the workouts is usually a short/moderate cardio session, hardly something to consult a coach about.

That advice is mostly geared towards beginners. Easy to get hurt if you push too hard, too early in your training journey.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

That advice is mostly geared towards beginners. Easy to get hurt if you push too hard, too early in your training journey.

Makes sense, Just pointing out that in terms of 2 a days, its rarely 2 all out, high intensity workouts.

 

[1jeds]

Makes sense, Just pointing out that in terms of 2 a days, its rarely 2 all out, high intensity workouts.

Exactly - frequency, volume, and intensity are all separate variables. All this talk about zone 2, it should really also include zone 1. I do 2 workouts per day most days between running, strength, and cycling with the vast majority of that being zone 1/2.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Exactly - frequency, volume, and intensity are all separate variables. All this talk about zone 2, it should really also include zone 1. I do 2 workouts per day most days between running, strength, and cycling with the vast majority of that being zone 1/2.

Exactly, I guess today will technically be a 2 a day for me since I did my rowing this morning and I'll head out on skis with my dogs this evening/afternoon but that will definitely be a zone 1/2 type of thing. I was reading an interview with this Australian bobsled chick who's one of the best out there right now, they were talking about all the workouts she posts on social media and she made sure to mention that those are all just clips so not all of her training is sprints and power cleans. she even said she does a daily "easy' ride/run/row and that her training is actually pretty boring, social media just makes it look interesting.