Trainer Rifle Options

[Jhconnected]

Ive drunk to kool-aid on the trainer rifle. Advice is needed.

Ideally, it would be a clone of my hunting rifle (6.5 PRC), but you can get my rifle/stock in 223 or the stock for aftermarket parts. So, a direct clone is out of the picture.

However, I can get a switch barrel in 6 CM or 6.5 CM for my rifle. This would require a new barrel and mag. Least expensive build option.

I can use my daughter’s 223 Ruger American. I would need to replace the scope since she’s not ready for a complex scope or reticle. Second least expensive build option.

Or, I can build a tikka 223. Most expensive option even without upgrading the stock, mag, etc.

What is my best option?

 

[EastHumboldt]

Well…. You’re on Rokslide, so the correct answer is always Tikka!!

 

[Jhconnected]

Ha!

I think the first thing that needs to be answered by all the trainer rifle people out there is: is 6 CM a good cartridge for a trainer rifle?

If no, then we can start outfitting me with a Tikka.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Ha!

I think the first thing that needs to be answered by all the trainer rifle people out there is: is 6 CM a good cartridge for a trainer rifle?

If no, then we can start outfitting me with a Tikka.

No on the 6 Creed. Need barrel life and cheap. Think in terms of thousands of rounds not hundreds of rounds.

.223 is the answer man. Simple stupid cheap. And can still kill with it inside 400 for hunting, especially amazing for kids/women/recoil sensitive shooters (e.g everyone).

Plus then you get a tikka


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LongWayAround]

Put a 6x SWFA on the Ruger. Seems like the easy button.

Your daughter probably doesn't care that it dials reliably or that the cross hair has little diamonds on it.

 

[Jhconnected]

No on the 6 Creed. Need barrel life and cheap. Think in terms of thousands of rounds not hundreds of rounds.

.223 is the answer man. Simple stupid cheap. And can still kill with it inside 400 for hunting, especially amazing for kids/women/recoil sensitive shooters (e.g everyone).

Plus then you get a tikka


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you find it helps going through shot process and shot practice?

Does it help with recoil/prevents developing a flinch?

 

[Jhconnected]

Th

Put a 6x SWFA on the Ruger. Seems like the easy button.

Your daughter probably doesn't care that it dials reliably or that the cross hair has little diamonds on it.

The 6x SWFA would be the easy button/cheapest option. Duplicating my scope on there would make it the not cheapest option.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Do you find it helps going through shot process and shot practice?

Does it help with recoil/prevents developing a flinch?

Yes and yes.

To get the most benefit, you need to have it suppressed also. It’s about many many reps behind a gun that has so little recoil/muzzle blast that you have NO flinch. Eyes are staying open, you’re seeing bullet flight/impact on every shot.

My 6Creed is my baby for hunting. But even the difference between that and a .223 is notable in recoil, especially x1000s of rounds.

Ideally your trainer and hunting rifle are copies of each other for everything except cartridge/bullet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jhconnected]

Yes and yes.

To get the most benefit, you need to have it suppressed also. It’s about many many reps behind a gun that has so little recoil/muzzle blast that you have NO flinch. Eyes are staying open, you’re seeing bullet flight/impact on every shot.

My 6Creed is my baby for hunting. But even the difference between that and a .223 is notable in recoil, especially x1000s of rounds.

Ideally your trainer and hunting rifle are copies of each other for everything except cartridge/bullet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How often do you switch back to the 6 CM?

 

[Jake Larsen]

Edited to say .223, not .243

I can set great, cheap practice behind the .223, then grab the 6Creed when it’s time to lay some meat down on a hunt where I may need more than 400 yards of terminal performance. With identical setups (scope, stock, ect) all the training transfers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jake Larsen]

How often do you switch back to the 6 CM?

Im still playing with that. Im trying to find the line where I get “enough” practice with the wind so that I am still intuitive with the 6Creed

I hunt 0-600, so my practice is mostly inside those ranges. I focus a lot on practicing setup. Gun on backpack just like when hike/hunting, to setup and take a shot. The “Wind Bracketing” system works out to 500-600 which is mostly what I use. I’m still trying to work out if Wind Bracketing with the .223 is close enough of a 1:1 with the 6Creed (especially at 500-600) that I don’t really need to practice with the 6Creed much at all. Again, only in the context of 2 identical setups.

I tune my loads to match quick drop as close as possible, so that part is almost a 1:1 transfer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jhconnected]

I won’t be doing two identical setups. My 6.5 PRC is badass and accurate. So, I’d have to try to get as close as possible. Or go 6 CM.

 

[bnewt3]

IMO trainer should be 223 or 22LR. One of the main purposes of a trainer is significantly cheaper ammo than your "main" gun, another purpose is having significantly longer barrel life than your main gun. 6CM, while not one of the barrel burners, accomplishes neither of those.

 

[Jake Larsen]

I won’t be doing two identical setups. My 6.5 PRC is badass and accurate. So, I’d have to try to get as close as possible. Or go 6 CM.

Play around with some bullet options in Shooter app (or whatever Calc u use, but Shooter is great). I bet you can get a .223 load that behaves pretty close to your 6.5 PRC inside 500-600

What’s your trajectory table on your PRC, and what bullet? Also, what max effective range are you training for?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jhconnected]

Play around with some bullet options in Shooter app (or whatever Calc u use, but Shooter is great). I bet you can get a .223 load that behaves pretty close to your 6.5 PRC inside 500-600

What’s your load specs on your PRC? Also, what max effective range are you training for?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

156 gr EOL @2850 fps. I’m looking at 500 yards and in.

Is it worthwhile if you have a different stock/trigger?

 

[Jake Larsen]

156 gr EOL @2850 fps. I’m looking at 500 yards and in.

Is it worthwhile if you have a different stock/trigger?

Yes, still worth it absolutely. Just not 100% optimal.

Do you have a screenshot of your trajectory table?

Just throw in a 77TMK at 2700-2800 FPS and see how it compares. For me, @2800 it’s nearly identical to my 6 Creed load out to 600.

“Rokslide Special” .223 Training ammunition?
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...unition?.426271/&share_type=t&link_source=app

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I would not use a 6mm CM for your trainer. Barrel life is too low and ammo cost too high. I think .223 is by far the best, followed by 6mm ARC and 6.5mm Grendel, followed by 7.62x39. A .22 LR is great for practicing offhand at 50 yards.

 

[Jhconnected]

Yes, still worth it absolutely. Just not 100% optimal.

Do you have a screenshot of your trajectory table?

Just throw in a 77TMK at 2700-2800 FPS and see how it compares. For me, @2800 it’s nearly identical to my 6 Creed load out to 600.

“Rokslide Special” .223 Training ammunition?
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=45046&share_tid=426271&url=https://www.rokslide.com/forums/index.php?threads/“Rokslide-Special”-.223-Training-ammunition?.426271/&share_type=t&link_source=app

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jake Larsen]

I see you’re using MOA, so this may not make perfect sense to you, but it will give you the gist of what I’m trying to say. I’d do this same exercise with your elevation/environmentals and see if tou can find a training load that’s very close to your PRC ballistics.

(.223) 77TMK @2800 FPS (at my average shooting elevation/environmentals). Almost perfectly matches “Quick Drop” out to 600.

(6 Creed) 95 NBT @2800. Also is a very close match to Quick Drop out to 600

If I was to use these as a training/hunting pair, my practice is 1:1 in terms of drops.

Now for wind: These two bullets won’t behave the same in the wind, but with wind bracketing, they’re not as far apart from each other as you’d think. In a perfect world, the wind brackets for Low, Medium, and High winds would also line up perfectly. As is, they’re probably close enough for me that I won’t need to spend tons of time behind the 6Creed to make the adjustment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jhconnected]

I see you’re using MOA, so this may not make perfect sense to you, but it will give you the gist of what I’m trying to say. I’d do this same exercise with your elevation/environmentals and see if tou can find a training load that’s very close to your PRC ballistics.

(.223) 77TMK @2800 FPS (at my average shooting elevation/environmentals). Almost perfectly matches “Quick Drop” out to 600.

(6 Creed) 95 NBT @2800. Also is a very close match to Quick Drop out to 600

If I was to use these as a training/hunting pair, my practice is 1:1 in terms of drops.

Now for wind: These two bullets won’t behave the same in the wind, but with wind bracketing, they’re not as far apart from each other as you’d think. In a perfect world, the wind brackets for Low, Medium, and High winds would also line up perfectly. As is, they’re probably close enough for me that I won’t need to spend tons of time behind the 6Creed to make the adjustment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I looked at Forms quick drop solution and mapped it to my ballistics in MILS before I bought my MOA scope.

Ultimately, I felt I’d have to pull correct holdovers from memory and maybe a little math and didn’t trust myself to do either correctly when the flop sweat and buck fever hit. Also, I don’t shoot enough to drill it and the MIL system in so I stuck with what I knew.

If I could map drops btw rifle and trainer to be similar to what you did that would be stellar. If not, then at least I’m still getting quality practice.