Time of Arrow Flight / Animals Jumping the String

[Gorp2007]

Do you think an arrow leaving a bow at 300 fps is still going 300 fps at 80 yards downrange?

Ran the numbers through two different arrow ballistic calculators, a 28.5" 475gr arrow going 300 fps with 3x Blazers should be going ~280 fps at 80 yards. Which adjusts the time of flight out to 80 yards from 0.8 seconds to 0.82 seconds. Not sure that's going to dramatically alter the outcome of a shot.

 

[Reburn]

right lets argue about 0.02 seconds

 

[Billy Goat]

Wait we talking sex now?


I think I'm good to .78

 

[Laramie]

Ran the numbers through two different arrow ballistic calculators, a 28.5" 475gr arrow going 300 fps with 3x Blazers should be going ~280 fps at 80 yards. Which adjusts the time of flight out to 80 yards from 0.8 seconds to 0.82 seconds. Not sure that's going to dramatically alter the outcome of a shot.

The theoretical numbers seem very close so .02 wouldn't make a huge difference. However, very few archers are shooting equipment that can duplicate theoretical performance. There are many drag factors to consider and will likely have a larger impact on actual arrow speed. The average archers setup will lose more than 20 FPS when travelling 80 yards. For the topic of conversation, those differences can be the difference between catching the vitals or not on an animal that jumps the string.

 

[Billy Goat]

A few guys here have a Labradar so they can verify at distance. I just shot through my chrony. I posted numbers, let me see if I can find it and link it.


Bottom of the post I gave just a few numbers. I could do it again with some different weights.

Energy at range.

I have started playing around with a few different shaft weights. Kinda getting late to change anything but I got curious and wanted to play a little. Has anyone, or does anyone know where information has been posted on retained velocity? I'm thinking of setting my Chrono up and getting...

www.rokslide.com

 

[MattB]

What am I missing here?

You are missing 2 important factors: 1) arrows decelerate over distance due to drag (e.g. an arrow launched at 300 fps will not till be travelling 300 fps when it reaches the target at 80 yards), and 2) the arrow doesn't travel in a straight line so its trajectory covers more distance than 80 yards when travelling that distance in the horizontal plane.

 

[treillw]

Regardless, don't overthink it.

You are missing 2 important factors: 1) arrows decelerate over distance due to drag (e.g. an arrow launched at 300 fps will not till be travelling 300 fps when it reaches the target at 80 yards), and 2) the arrow doesn't travel in a straight line so its trajectory covers more distance than 80 yards when travelling that distance in the horizontal plane.

And I'm the one who's over thinking things?

I just was throwing out a simple number for discussion purposes. Say 300 fps is an average velocity and the animal is at 78.6231 yards. Flight time is somewhere just under a second - close enough for a discussion point which is giving a "long range" time of flight for a "fast" bow.

 

[MattB]

String jumping is predominantly a function of hunting pressure, animal demeanor, and bow noise. And yet guys try to reason through it based on factors like time and bow speed as criteria.

It's like asking, if I left Cleveland at 10:30PM on a Tuesday heading west and averaging 35 miles an hour, what color is the shirt of the guy sitting next to me?

 

[Reburn]

You are missing 2 important factors: 1) arrows decelerate over distance due to drag (e.g. an arrow launched at 300 fps will not till be travelling 300 fps when it reaches the target at 80 yards), and 2) the arrow doesn't travel in a straight line so its trajectory covers more distance than 80 yards when travelling that distance in the horizontal plane.

I mean all this stuff is pretty basic. Just like bullets it leaves the barrel at 2700 fps its not at 2700 fps 500 yards out. Also as it tracks slower gravity has a greater effect. To be honest I'm not even going to argure the length of the trajectory vs the ground length. Show your math that its significant at 80 yards. However would it have made you feel better if he said leaving the bow at 300 FPS. I mean we are really slicing hairs here bud with you trying to make yourself correct. Since you have time to say your right come on lets math the shit out of this.

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String jumping is predominantly a function of hunting pressure, animal demeanor, and bow noise. And yet guys try to reason through it based on factors like time and bow speed as criteria.

It's like asking, if I left Cleveland at 10:30PM on a Tuesday heading west and averaging 35 miles an hour, what color is the shirt of the guy sitting next to me?

His question was,
A lot of people are shooting a long ways at animals these days. Just curious about what bow speeds and shot distances people are comfortable with for longer shots.

So ask your buddy in the green shirt how far he is comfortable generally shooting an arrow at animals and how does that change based on species and locale. You say bow speed has no effect so your comfortable shooting at 50 yards at 240 FPS vs 50 yards at 280 FPS?

I'm not trying to be cheeky here but a simple , its different in every situation would have been way easier then trying to argure drag properties of arrow.

 

[Billy Goat]

I mean all this stuff is pretty basic. Just like bullets it leaves the barrel at 2700 fps its not at 2700 fps 500 yards out. Also as it tracks slower gravity has a greater effect. To be honest I'm not even going to argure the length of the trajectory vs the ground length. Show your math that its significant at 80 yards. However would it have made you feel better if he said leaving the bow at 300 FPS. I mean we are really slicing hairs here bud with you trying to make yourself correct. Since you have time to say your right come on lets math the shit out of this.

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His question was,
A lot of people are shooting a long ways at animals these days. Just curious about what bow speeds and shot distances people are comfortable with for longer shots.

So ask your buddy in the green shirt how far he is comfortable generally shooting an arrow at animals and how does that change based on species and locale. You say bow speed has no effect so your comfortable shooting at 50 yards at 240 FPS vs 50 yards at 280 FPS?

I'm not trying to be cheeky here but a simple , its different in every situation would have been way easier then trying to argure drag properties of arrow.

I have a green shirt on right now.


45 yards on whitetail. I have shot them further but have had enough bad experience this is what I find comfortable. I have hit deer perfectly out to 80, also have made poor hits under exact same circumstances. Calm deer, no idea I'm there.

85 on elk. Had one I hit back @ 47 yards. He watched me draw back and was alert. I don't think he reacted to the shot, however he potentially did. As I replayed it in my mind I think he stepped forward as I executed the shot. I certainly believe they can jump on you if they are alert tho.

Generally shooting 280-300 fps. I don't like giving up too much about my locations but eastern whitetail (which are edgier than Midwest) and public land elk.


Sorry I just wanted to play along.

 

[OXN939]

Surprised noone has posted this yet...

I aim for the bottom third of the vitals with a bow.

 

[Buffalomtn]

You can hunt the first day of the season on a property with almost no pressure, use a quiet bow, launch an arrow at short distance at a calm feeding deer that has no idea you are there and it still may “jump“ at the shot causing your arrow to hit the deer at a different location than it would had the deer not moved at a shot. Guys that think a deer won’t jump/move at the shot if they pick their shot carefully, only shoot when the deer is in the perfect position and calm, use a quiet bow, etc. are wrong or simply have not hunted enough to have experienced it. You should do everything you can to make it less likely that a deer will jump at the shot, but despite your best efforts it still can and will happen.

 

[treillw]

Surprised noone has posted this yet...

I aim for the bottom third of the vitals with a bow.

It looks like they know exactly what's coming haha.

 

[MattB]

So ask your buddy in the green shirt how far he is comfortable generally shooting an arrow at animals and how does that change based on species and locale. You say bow speed has no effect so your comfortable shooting at 50 yards at 240 FPS vs 50 yards at 280 FPS?

I'm not trying to be cheeky here but a simple , its different in every situation would have been way easier then trying to argure drag properties of arrow.

My point was drag and arrow speed don't particularly matter, nor does 240 fps or 280 fps. Either the animal is displayed the demeanor to be there when the arrow arrives or it isn't. And bow quietness (which is usually inversely related to speed) may be the difference.

On the margin there may be the case where the 40 fps means the difference between the animal taking a step or not before the arrow arrives, but is that 1 in 100 or 1 in 1,000? Not worth worrying about IMO when there are other more relevant factors to consider.

 

[Laramie]

I disagree with the theory speed doesn't matter. Take the video above for instance. If those arrows were travelling 50 FPS faster, every one of those deer would have been hit. With animals like whitetail that are prone to jumping the string, shooting fast arrows, and aiming at the lower third, will lead to higher kill rates when the animal does jump the string.

 

[fatlander]

It depends on the animals mood. Some species of course are known for jumping the string more than others. I’ve had East coast whitetails just stand like a statue to take an arrow. Last fall, I watched a Montana bull duck an arrow like a South Texas doe. He was alert and had already seen me. I stopped him with a nervous grunt but that wasn’t enough to keep him from getting the hell out of dodge.

I think a quiet bow is more important than speed for the vast majority of hunting applications. If the animal is alert, and it’s a longer shot, a little extra speed isn’t going to help especially since it comes with a noise penalty.

Some bows have a sort of high pitched ping at the shot, especially with lighter arrows. Those are the bows I’ve had the worst luck with animals ducking. The bows that have a more dull thud seem to get less reaction out of animals, especially with a heavier arrow. YMMV.


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[mavinwa2]

IME, not alerted elk not so much. Deer yes, but depends on pressure too.
but I think from my observations that deer jump due to not only a noisy bow at close range but a noisy arrow at longer range.
I've watched Coues bucks do the dip at 65 yards, a few yards before arrow gets there. Vanes and those broadheads with cut outs are noisy downrange.
and if a deer is at water with its head down to drink, I settle pin lower 1/3rd of sweet spot.

 

[Gearqueer]

On whitetails I have found over time that if I aim low in the heart they will almost always drop to where the arrow hits lungs or higher in the heart. I used to think that because of my form or otherwise I was shooting high so I started aiming very low on them. Now, many years later, there are so many videos online showing why this happens (jumping string).

If I miss them low I can live with that, but I hate hitting them high.


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[Billy Goat]

Since this has gotten so technical I vote that this all gets edited to duck the string.

I do have rabbits jump the arrow.

 

[Beendare]

My experience;

1) Shooting at animals that made you is always a huge factor

2) a quiet bow matters- your arrow is never faster than the speed of sound 1127 fps

Its a bit counter intuitive but the heavier slower arrow has proven to get less animal reaction. Guys shooting a fast and light setup are actually creating more string jumping reaction.

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