Thoughts on Improvement of My Long(ish) Range Shooting

[Formidilosus]

In terms of working through a flinch, dry fire is the answer. Even the guy that said dry fire is not the answer suggested that you dry fire, LOL.

What causes a flinch?

 

[OregonSteeler]

Backup hunting rifle (carbon stock, CF wrapped barrel). Factory ammo. Shot today.
This rifle is getting fed all kinds of factory ammo, and it's not truly zero'd for anything at the moment.
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Difference in elevation zero offset is 0.02 mils
Difference in windage zero offset is 0.04 mils

.......both of those differences are less than 0.05 mils. If you are seeing significant variance in zero offsets between a 5-shot group and a 10-shot group, you've got a shooter and/or gear issue. Pretty simple.

A couple generic points from my perspective:
1) The +/- 500 rounds that I've posted in this thread, is not high level performance. I've said this in multiple threads, and shown my own experience with many different types of factory ammo that 1/2 to 5/8 moa 5-shot groups, 3/4 to 7/8-MOA 10-shot groups, and about 1-MOA 20-shot groups is at least the low bar of where expectations should be set.

2) For people looking to really get into this (like the OP), assume that you are the problem unless proven otherwise. Your zero will wander because you are inconsistent. Your group sizes will be inconsistent because you are inconsistent. Follow trends over time and evaluate performance relative to what & how you are practicing. Adjust if needed. The notion that you can fire a few extra rounds and now your zero offsets are rock solid will lead you to chase your tail in the beginning.

In terms of working through a flinch, dry fire is the answer. Even the guy that said dry fire is not the answer suggested that you dry fire, LOL.

Your #2 paragraph is spot on. I've got good equipment, just need to put the time in behind the scope.

In terms of dry fire practice to help with flinch. I'm focusing on a repeatable, methodical process to follow each time so I can perfect a sound follow through. Ryan Cleckner (NSSF) on Youtube has some great videos that I'm trying to insert into my practice routine.

Once again, I really appreciate everyone's help.

 

[OregonSteeler]

What causes a flinch?

For me, I have a flinch because I don't shoot enough and don't have solid muscle memory to work though it. My flinch is because I am anticipating the recoil of my rifle. My flinch becomes much less noticeable once I get a couple rounds through the chamber and my groupings get tighter. Definitely not where I want to be though.

 

[Formidilosus]

For me, I have a flinch because I don't shoot enough and don't have solid muscle memory to work though it.

That is not what causes any flinch, nor your flinch. The more you shoot- the worse and more ingrained your flinch will become.

My flinch is because I am anticipating the recoil of my rifle.

That is part of it.

My flinch becomes much less noticeable once I get a couple rounds through the chamber and my groupings get tighter.

No, your flinch just gets more consistent and less noticeable. It doesn’t becomes “less”.

Definitely not where I want to be though.

You keep dry firing and your flinch is only going to get more ingrained.

 

[Formidilosus]

Since the poster that I asked won’t answer-

A flinch is a subconscious reaction to the movement of the rifle causing recoil bracing; a reaction to the flash, blast, and noise causing an involuntary closing of the eyes and muscular contraction to “brace” for those as well.

It is subconscious- someone that has a flinch can not consciously control it by “trying real hard”- the more someone try’s to fight it, the more ingrained it becomes. Getting smacked in the shoulder and face, and having massive noise, concussion and blast two feet from your head has a natural protection reaction in your brain- get away from it, and/or brace for it.

All that dry firing does is program even deeper in your subconscious exactly where the trigger breaks so it can short cut what it does to “flinch” to brace or react better.

“Aiming”, or the desire to hit the target adds another layer on top of flinching- anticipation. The desire to hit the target, and the subconscious and conscious knowledge that the sights are moving and the will move even more when the gun fires, causes your sub subconscious to try and control/command the gun to go off when the sights are “there now!”

Flinching and anticipation are different, yet are interlinked- two sides of the same coin as it were. They feedback loop to each other- the more you flinch, the more anticipation kicks in to force the gun to fire “now” because the sights won’t be there for long due to flinching. The more you command the gun to go off, the sooner your mind sends singles to “flinch” (brace) to prepare for the recoil/noise/blast. On and on.




Dry fire is not how you control or eliminate a flinch or anticipation.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Since the poster that I asked won’t answer-

A flinch is a subconscious reaction to the movement of the rifle causing recoil bracing; a reaction to the flash, blast, and noise causing an involuntary closing of the eyes and muscular contraction to “brace” for those as well.

It is subconscious- someone that has a flinch can not consciously control it by “trying real hard”- the more someone try’s to fight it, the more ingrained it becomes. Getting smacked in the shoulder and face, and having massive noise, concussion and blast two feet from your head has a natural protection reaction in your brain- get away from it, and/or brace for it.

All that dry firing does is program even deeper in your subconscious exactly where the trigger breaks so it can short cut what it does to “flinch” to brace or react better.

“Aiming”, or the desire to hit the target adds another layer on top of flinching- anticipation. The desire to hit the target, and the subconscious and conscious knowledge that the sights are moving and the will move even more when the gun fires, causes your sub subconscious to try and control/command the gun to go off when the sights are “there now!”

Flinching and anticipation are different, yet are interlinked- two sides of the same coin as it were. They feedback loop to each other- the more you flinch, the more anticipation kicks in to force the gun to fire “now” because the sights won’t be there for long due to flinching. The more you command the gun to go off, the sooner your mind sends singles to “flinch” (brace) to prepare for the recoil/noise/blast. On and on.




Dry fire is not how you control or eliminate a flinch or anticipation.

Would you say the way Joel Turner from ShotIQ approaches this is a good way to overcome flinching?

 

[Wrench]

I would strongly suggest listening to Joel Turner. You have shot anticipation. Joel addresses the mental game of this.....it'll be well worth the time.

You can get recoil anticipation on a 25 pound bow, 22lr or 600nitro. The important skill is learning how to deal with it.

 

[ElGuapo]

Don't underestimate the value of dry firing to help tame that flinch. It is very easy to do and cost nothing but the time to do it. 5 or 10 shots every day. Make sure you know where the crosshairs were when the trigger broke. If you can't "call your shots," you flinched.

Dry firing, Shooting a scoped 22, or at most 223, is your friend.

 

[Formidilosus]

Would you say the way Joel Turner from ShotIQ approaches this is a good way to overcome flinching?

I haven’t seen his firearm stuff, his archery stuff is pretty good. However their is a faster way to mostly eliminate anticipation. It takes about a day of shooting with someone else pulling the trigger on a release to get people with pretty bad target panic some real control improvements. About two-three days for the worst people.
Unfortunately there isn’t the same thing as “ball and dummy” for archery, if there were a release that only sometimes released the string on the click- target panic/anticipation would go away fast.

 

[Wrench]

Joel touches on the mental sequence that most of us who are successful have but don't necessarily identify nor can explain.

If you have a process that is consistent and you follow it every time, you're in good shape. Now if you click a uber mag up a steep slope and bite the chit out of your eye.... you're probably going to need some work to recover.

That's what joel teaches....or at least, that's what I hear. I just replace bow with rifle and x brand release with x brand trigger.....etc.

He's got enough free podcasts out there to give it a listen and it's worth what you paid.

 

[Formidilosus]

Joel touches on the mental sequence that most of us who are successful have but don't necessarily identify nor can explain.

If you have a process that is consistent and you follow it every time, you're in good shape.

Unfortunately the subconscious place where flinching comes from doesn’t care about your process. This where the separation between archery and guns comes in. There are parallels, but not in a few key aspects.

 

[SDHNTR]

I owned a lightweight (Kimber 8400) .270 wsm for a hot minute. Sharpest recoiling rifle I’ve ever owned, and I own all the mags from 7RM to .375HH. Couldn’t sell it fast enough. Beautiful rifle to look at and great on paper, terrible field rifle for me.

You’ve received lots of good suggestions here. Here’s one more…. Sell the rifle. A flinch inducing rifle will never suit you well.

 

[JohnJohnson]

People have already mentioned some ways to help fix the root of your flinch but my out-of-left-field recommendation is you should look into getting a suppressor as well. It takes all of the blast concussion away and a fair bit of the sound (though not hollywood quiet), plus it reduces recoil and smooths the recoil impulse out too. All of that contributes to a less abusive shooting experience that helps people who are prone to developing flinches, though you should also do the other suggested stuff.

 

[fwafwow]

You do not need a “LOT” more shooting until you have the flinch (anticipation) under total control. The only way you will ever get a flinch removed is to rewire and retrain your subconscious. Ball and dummy (not knowing when the gun is loaded or not) is really the only way people get over anticipation.

Buy snap caps. Take three mags, with out looking at them, mix 5-10 snap caps with 1-3 live rounds randomly in those three mags. Then mix the mags up as well without looking at them, load one in the gun, the others in a pocket. Then proceed to shoot, but do not catch any round or brass, nor look at the rifle between shots. Keep your face in the scope and briskly run the bolt. When the mag is empty, with your eyes closed, insert a new mag, load and continue.

I don’t think I have a flinch with my new RSS, and at the range yesterday I purposefully (!) lost track of how many rounds I fired per magazine and kept cycling until I dry fired. But since I probably knew the chamber was empty, I decided to follow this advice going forward. So I ordered a couple of extra magazines and some dummy rounds. I figure even if I don’t have a flinch, it’s a good exercise for each range session.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t think I have a flinch with my new RSS, and at the range yesterday I purposefully (!) lost track of how many rounds I fired per magazine and kept cycling until I dry fired. But since I probably knew the chamber was empty, I decided to follow this advice going forward. So I ordered a couple of extra magazines and some dummy rounds. I figure even if I don’t have a flinch, it’s a good exercise for each range session.

It is a an exceptionally good practice to do every time at the range. Starting and ending every practice day with 10-20 ball and dummy’s, with some thrown in the middle, is the single best thing someone can do for anticipation/flinching.

 

[hereinaz]

Another good practice that helped me is to dry fire a lot, and build in the pathways deep, so that you are in that preconditioned pattern of shooting: pressing the trigger slowly, watching the reticle, freezing when the trigger breaks and pin falls, keep focusing the eye on the reticle, releasing the trigger and then cycling the bolt without moving the eye off the reticle or moving the rifle off target to repeat the sequence over again.

 

[hereinaz]

I don’t think I have a flinch with my new RSS, and at the range yesterday I purposefully (!) lost track of how many rounds I fired per magazine and kept cycling until I dry fired. But since I probably knew the chamber was empty, I decided to follow this advice going forward. So I ordered a couple of extra magazines and some dummy rounds. I figure even if I don’t have a flinch, it’s a good exercise for each range session.

I think everyone has a flinch if there is sufficient concussive blast, because it is a reflex that I don't think can be trained out completely. It is a massive explosion right next to our heads, lol. But, with work it can be minimized to not interfere with the shot process noticeably. I think that is why it is also a perishable skill. When I don't have time on the gun for a couple months, I have to focus to dampen the reflex and flinch.

Its why I prefer a suppressor, because I notice a difference without the concussive blast.

 

[Castle Rock]

No reason to buy snap caps or anything fancy
Just seat a projectile in a sized case and use that

 

[fwafwow]

No reason to buy snap caps or anything fancy
Just seat a projectile in a sized case and use that

Can I seat a projectile without reloading equipment?

My question is moot - I already have the snap caps in hand.

 

[def90]

Can I seat a projectile without reloading equipment?

My question is moot - I already have the snap caps in hand.

If you are trying to play the random misfire game to tame flinching by putting snap caps in your 5 round top load hunting rifle it’s probably not going to work out as well as planned. The only way to do it effectively is to hand your rifle to some one else and have them randomly load it so that you don’t know what’s in it. Doing it yourself isn’t going to work out as well. It is a very effective teaching tool though. When I take friends shooting I like to hand them an empty rifle and tell them it’s ready to go and watch their reactions when they pull the trigger.

Dry fire training works really well. When I go to the range to work on my handguns when I start getting sloppy I will sit there in the lane and dry fire a dozen rounds or so between mags to settle down and then go back to a loaded magazine.

For long range shooting or even just training for hunting I still highly recommend taking a tactical long range sniper class or “precision rifle” is the term they use these days. Best training you can take if you think you want to shoot an elk Or deer past 200 yds.