Thoughts on Improvement of My Long(ish) Range Shooting

[Formidilosus]

To evaluate mechanical precision or obtain zero? There’s a difference. Obtaining a zero needs only a few rounds. I’ve shown it over and over and over with numerous rifles and ammo. It’s not hard.

Both. The vast majority of rifles/ammo/ including the ones commonly used for western hunting are 2 MOA guns. Zeroing off of a couple 3-5 shot groups that aren’t overlaid can and will produce zero errors of .2-.3 mils. How many hunters overlay all their groups with no BS about “fliers”?
Somehow you manage to get all your rifles to near bench rest level precision with ammo that even the factory can’t say shoots those size groups consistently. If your rifle is consistently better than 1 MOA for 20+ shot ES, then yeah- 5 shots will shot the MPOI pretty well.

That graph is from “actual shooting”. You might be confusing avg MV with MV SD. There’s a difference.

Again you somehow manage to get rifles and ammo that shoot smaller 20-30 round groups than factory testing under controlled conditions produces from those companies. Whether you rifles actually do that or not doesn’t matter, the reality is the number of people that have field rifles that agg that small is so close to zero, that it might as well be zero. What you are writing does not apply to hunters.

The stress drill’s time component is arbitrary. The rest is only arbitrary if you make it that way.

Everything is arbitrary. Every single shooting sport has time, distance, precision, and positional drills that are arbitrary or based on experience shown to increase performance. Telling people to ignore drills that time/distance/position/epuioment/etc standards is counter to literally every proven method of practice, training, or testing.


Please explain how this isn’t “arbitrary”-











But this is-

 

[Antares]

To evaluate mechanical precision or obtain zero? There’s a difference. Obtaining a zero needs only a few rounds.

Quite a bit of mental gymnastics required to follow this line of thinking.

How do you zero without knowing the true spread of the system? You just shoot a 3-round, 0.5 MOA group and tell yourself that's the zero even though it just randomly falls somewhere in the true 1.5–2.0 MOA spread of the system?

 

[MTGunner]

I practice longe range in Sitting and prone positions. Sitting I employ a bipod. But, practice, practice, practice and more. Get use to being comfortable in uncomfortable position. MTG

 

[id_jon]

Dryfire assistance tool here:

D.F.A.T (Dryfire, Focus, Adapter Training)

riflesonly.com

This will make dry fire much more beneficial if you're only able to dry fire inside.

 

[ORJoe]

Look at any of those Target pictures I posted. What would you gain from 5-shots to 20? Same for the avg MV graph, what do you gain from 5 shots to 20-shots

But you did have to fire 20 shots to know that is true rather than guessing or hoping it.

 

[Antares]

You understand the average MV is different than MV SD, right? Your average shot location is different than your radial SD.

Look at any of those Target pictures I posted. What would you gain from 5-shots to 20? Same for the avg MV graph, what do you gain from 5 shots to 20-shots

I wasn’t aware that the first three shots out of a rifle always represent the true center of the cone of dispersion, but I see that now. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[jimh406]

My problem with learning to shoot lots and lots of rounds to "confirm" zero is that you don't learn that every shot counts, and it's very expensive. Btw, this is similar in archery hunting for me. Most game won't let you warm up while you get into a grove. My reloads are built with great care. I'm not going to waste them to shoot 10-30 round groups to confirm zero. You'd be better off shooting 1 round on 10 different days that 10 at once.

You can find experts on every topic on the internet that disagree with each other. I've been watching Eric Cortana's channel on Youtube. You can't apply all of his target shooting methodology to hunting all of the time, but there is a lot of information that can be applied to hunting. I think the same applies to everyone else including Hornady.

Sure, Hornady has knowledge that can be gained as well, but if you believe only Hornady, you probably shouldn't buy any caliber other than their designs, and only use their bullets. Btw, I watch the Hornady series, but I don't missed the one that said you need to shoot 10-30 round groups to confirm zero.

 

[id_jon]

This is one 10 shot group from a load that my rifle doesn't like. Clearly there is a possibility that I could think I need to adjust my zero if I based it off of a 3, or even 5 shot shot group. I could also shoot a 3 shot group and come away thinking that the load/rifle is shooting a 1/2 moa, when in reality it's shooting 2 moa. It might feel like a waste to shoot more rounds to obtain a solid zero, but its less wasteful than chasing issues when you miss at distance trying to shoot targets that are smaller than your system is capable of.

I know from previous groups that it shoots Hornady factory ammo around .9moa, which it still does. Apparently I need to abandon berger 144s in this rifle.

 

[Antares]

My problem with learning to shoot lots and lots of rounds to "confirm" zero is that you don't learn that every shot counts, and it's very expensive. Btw, this is similar in archery hunting for me. Most game won't let you warm up while you get into a grove. My reloads are built with great care. I'm not going to waste them to shoot 10-30 round groups to confirm zero. You'd be better off shooting 1 round on 10 different days that 10 at once.

You can find experts on every topic on the internet that disagree with each other. I've been watching Eric Cortana's channel on Youtube. You can't apply all of his target shooting methodology to hunting all of the time, but there is a lot of information that can be applied to hunting. I think the same applies to everyone else including Hornady.

Sure, Hornady has knowledge that can be gained as well, but if you believe only Hornady, you probably shouldn't buy any caliber other than their designs, and only use their bullets. Btw, I watch the Hornady series, but I don't missed the one that said you need to shoot 10-30 round groups to confirm zero.

To be clear, I'm not talking about shooting lots of rounds to "confirm" zero. Confirming zero is a 1-2 shot confidence building exercise and if you have a solid setup, you should rarely be surprised by your zero confirmation shots.

I'm talking about an initial zero when you're setting up rifle. You said your "reloads are built with great care." So why would you put that care into reloading and then accept the possibility that your zero is off by 0.25-0.5 MOA? I think the argument is that if you're already zeroing with 3-5 shot groups, stepping it up to 10 isn't a lot of extra rounds and statistically gets you closer to the true center of your cone. I think you end up saving ammo in the long run because you're not trying to chase some problem in your dope that's actual just a zero error.

I don't like the idea that every shot I take is potential 0.25-0.5 MOA off because I couldn't be bothered to do a 10-round zero and now I've built a fundamental error into my system. Everyone is free to do what they feel is best for them. At the end of the day, only hits count. Full stop.

 

[4th_point]

Being self-aware and critical of where I stand as I hunter, I can honestly say I'm not that great of a shot outside of 220+ yds. This is where I will be focusing a lot of my time over the next few months and would like to be confident out to roughly 500yds by fall.

I realize to get where I want to be; it's going to take practice, practice, and more practice. I hunt with a Tikka T3 Lite 270 WSM. Should I be spending most all of my range time behind the rifle I'll hunt with, or can I use a smaller caliber (.22-250 or .243) to save on ammo cost and recoil abuse? I have a hard time not flinching and thought using a smaller caliber with negligible recoil may help in that area?

I'd also like to hear how many shots people usually take during a range session and any other recommendations or tips to improve my accuracy?

Thanks!

Good for you, realizing your limitations and being honest. I'm not just saying that either.

In my experience with several Tikkas (including magnums), and helping others shoot in general (some with Tikkas), I think it's possible to learn to shoot a T3 in 270 WSM well. But, I also feel that is quite a bit of recoil for most shooters. And you already have a flinch.

You can work to eliminate that flinch with your existing rifle, but it would be easier and maybe faster with less recoil. Then work up to the 270 WSM again.

However the T3, in my opinion, also tends to buck and jump so it can be difficult to spot impacts. Even for experienced and competent shooters, without a brake. I wouldn't put a brake on a T3, but that is just me. So you may end up doing fine with the recoil, but develop another bad habit of not following through well and trying to force yourself to catch that impact.

When I take people shooting for midrange proficiency (out to ~600 yards), I tell them to bring a minimum of three boxes of ammo for a rifle that is already zeroed. And figure on shooting 40 rounds from prone. The extra box or two is for when something goes wrong, which is not uncommon. I normally end up shooting 0 to maybe 20 rounds on those days, as I try to get others sorted and we are focused on flat ranges and relatively easy wind.

If I am with more experienced shooters, I take 50 - 100 rounds per rifle. Usually trying to finish off a box or two of 50 handloads!

What butt pad is on that rifle? Factory, or other? Sorry if that has already been addressed.

Good luck man! I know that it may not be fun now, but it's a good journey and you seem to be headed in the right direction already.

 

[4th_point]

PS - where do you shoot? Coast? Gun club?

 

[OregonSteeler]

First off, THANK YOU everyone for the helpful insights and tips. This has given me some great information to work on for the next couple months.



Here's some answers to people's questions.



1. I live in the Portland, OR area so I typically drive 1.5-2hrs to the coast to shoot. It's longer to get out there than I'd like, but I do enjoy the realistic setting and try to use what I would use in the field hunting.



2. Yes, I do flinch like I said, but it doesn't put me off paper. Typically after a couple of rounds, I am able to tighten up my group to about a paper pie plate size at 250yds. From there is where I want to become more accurate. I do not reload and cannot commit to that at this point in my life, hopefully down the road but not now.



3. My Tikka is stock and has a rubberized buttstock. I'm also 6ft and 210 so the recoil of this rifle isn't awful.



4. I won't be purchasing any new rifles or equipment and not going to throw $1000s of dollars into this. I can get better, MUCH better with more practice. I already have a .22-250 and a .243 so plan on shooting those a lot more too.



5. I've done the dry fire at home and either I'm not doing it effectively or doing it incorrectly. I'm easily able to hold the crosshairs before, during, and after a trigger pull knowing there's nothing in the chamber. My problem lies within the first couple shots and that's what counts when hunting. I truly believe that I just need a LOT more trigger time to become more accurate. I've heard that having someone hand you a rifle without knowing if it's loaded or not, can really help minimizing flinching. Unfortunately, I will be shooting alone for the most part and that is not an option.



6. I do like the idea of taking a long-range shooting course and will look into that. Whether I can fit it into my schedule remains to be seen.



Lastly, I have no issues with this thread being derailed at all; as long as it's informational and helpful to others. Hopefully this thread can help others in the future.

 

[Harvey_NW]

3. My Tikka is stock and has a rubberized buttstock.

Is it the factory, or a limbsaver? I was pretty shocked by how much better one of my Tikkas without a brake feels to shoot just by throwing one of those on, I bought one for every factory rifle I own now.

5. I've done the dry fire at home and either I'm not doing it effectively or doing it incorrectly. I'm easily able to hold the crosshairs before, during, and after a trigger pull knowing there's nothing in the chamber. My problem lies within the first couple shots and that's what counts when hunting. I truly believe that I just need a LOT more trigger time to become more accurate. I've heard that having someone hand you a rifle without knowing if it's loaded or not, can really help minimizing flinching. Unfortunately, I will be shooting alone for the most part and that is not an option.

Something that helped me was going through the motions slowly and focusing on all of the mechanics and fundamentals, every single shot. Taking it to the point it becomes mental-muscle memory. Watch some of the videos of those referenced and learn how to build the proper position, hand placement, breathing, trigger SQUEEZE, follow through, etc. and practice that when you're dry firing. Then when you get to the range, don't change a thing. Go through every single one of those same motions focusing on them all the way through breaking the shot, and you won't flinch.

 

[4th_point]

Do you have a decent 22 LR? If so, I'd use that before the 22-250 and 243.

I would also consider replacing the stock pad with a Limbsaver. Or do you think that you can shoot ~40 rounds from prone? I've seen some tough dudes struggle to do so with just the plain old 270 Win from RAR and T3 rifles. Just when they got the hang of things, they had to stop shooting for the day!

 

[OregonSteeler]

Is it the factory, or a limbsaver? I was pretty shocked by how much better one of my Tikkas without a brake feels to shoot just by throwing one of those on, I bought one for every factory rifle I own now.


Something that helped me was going through the motions slowly and focusing on all of the mechanics and fundamentals, every single shot. Taking it to the point it becomes mental-muscle memory. Watch some of the videos of those referenced and learn how to build the proper position, hand placement, breathing, trigger SQUEEZE, follow through, etc. and practice that when you're dry firing. Then when you get to the range, don't change a thing. Go through every single one of those same motions focusing on them all the way through breaking the shot, and you won't flinch.

Will definitely try this.

Thank you,

Rob

 

[Formidilosus]

5. I've done the dry fire at home and either I'm not doing it effectively or doing it incorrectly. I'm easily able to hold the crosshairs before, during, and after a trigger pull knowing there's nothing in the chamber.

Dry firing does not help with flinching, it only makes it worse. Those telling you to dry fire have no idea what they are saying.

Dry fire is to learn basic gun handling and mechanics of loading, safety use, reloading, proper trigger control, etc. Once you can on demand press the trigger when you know the rifle is empty without disturbing the sights, dry firing more CAN ONLY make a flinch worse.

My problem lies within the first couple shots and that's what counts when hunting. I truly believe that I just need a LOT more trigger time to become more accurate. I've heard that having someone hand you a rifle without knowing if it's loaded or not, can really help minimizing flinching. Unfortunately, I will be shooting alone for the most part and that is not an option.

You do not need a “LOT” more shooting until you have the flinch (anticipation) under total control. The only way you will ever get a flinch removed is to rewire and retrain your subconscious. Ball and dummy (not knowing when the gun is loaded or not) is really the only way people get over anticipation.

Buy snap caps. Take three mags, with out looking at them, mix 5-10 snap caps with 1-3 live rounds randomly in those three mags. Then mix the mags up as well without looking at them, load one in the gun, the others in a pocket. Then proceed to shoot, but do not catch any round or brass, nor look at the rifle between shots. Keep your face in the scope and briskly run the bolt. When the mag is empty, with your eyes closed, insert a new mag, load and continue.
The entire goal here is to think the chamber is loaded when it isn’t, and not loaded when it is. This will take hundreds of shots to start gaining real control of your emotions and subconscious reactions.

 

[Shraggs]

So you can’t or won’t answer any of those questions?

Do you have any data of your own to show why a particular round count is used?




To anyone here that cares, I’ll give some more of my data. Multiple rifles, multiple factory ammo, from a nobody hobbyist shooting prone with a bipod & rear bag:

30-rounds from 6CM (I've posted results from this rifle already in this thread).
View attachment 549000

Green dot is center of 30-shot aggregate. Red dot is center of running group.
View attachment 549001

View attachment 549005


Below is 34 rounds from my Ti/Ca 7RM primary hunting rifle (using factory ammo). This is the third rifle and third cartridge I've posted so far in this thread. Pictures of Groups HERE
View attachment 549010

View attachment 549011

Here's the fourth rifle I’ve posted in this thread (the second 6.5CM) with factory ammo (I think this is the 19th different type of factory ammo I've posted in this thread)
View attachment 549014

View attachment 549016

View attachment 549017

As much as I don't like saying it, and as much as many on here won't like reading it, 3-shot groups will get a good zero the vast majority of times. That obviously assumes the shooter has half a clue and they are using good gear. It's a rare occurrence for a 5-shot group to not work. And by the way, to anyone paying attention, I am not and have not advocated for people to shoot less in the general sense. Everyone should shoot more. However, the idea that a couple 10-round groups gets you rock solid, pin pointed zero offsets is simply not true - particularly when those advocating for 10-round groups are also strangely advocating for lower levels of performance. In terms of achieving zero, a slightly higher round count does not solve for inconsistencies.

Because this thread has derailed, I’ll also throw in that IME sub MOA 20-shot groups is normal (as seen by the 19 different 20-shot groups I’ve posted so far) and quality factory “match” ammo will consistently shoot ~5/8 MOA 5-shot groups with MV SDs in the sub 15 fps range over 20 rounds. Competent handloaders can achieve better, better shooters can shoot better, and specialized equipment will also perform at a higher standard.

What range zero. The tear marks look like 25 yards?

 

[4th_point]

You can do it, Rob. It's just in your head.

I've never done the ball and dummy routine myself, but have helped others at the range with it. I used to feed spent or live cases directly into the chamber. Shooter would close the bolt. Snap caps like Formi suggested would be even better, especially if you are shooting by yourself.

The trick that has worked really well for me is to have someone shoot my heavy Anschutz 22 LR if they are struggling with a centerfire. Not a huge sample size, but everyone having trouble with a centerfire exhibited problems with the 22 LR as well. The blast and recoil are obviously low, but some people seem to flinch with everything that they shoot.

That Anschutz will literally shoot into one hole at 50 yards so they end up figuring things out quick, get a lot of repetitions in, plus it's a ton of fun! Not everyone has a heavy 22 LR though.

And just for some perspective, my first T3 was a 300 WSM. I bought it in 2006. Man there was a lot of Tikka hate back then! Times have changed.

That T3 shot great but turned my shoulder purple and green with 40 rounds until I put a Limbsaver on it. After that, it was like getting punched with a soft pillow. No bruises or soreness. I knew that I was gonna get kicked, but it didn't hurt.

Not to get hippy-dippy, but if you can get your mind in that state then there will be no flinching. But I do think that one needs to address a stock that doesn't fit, or pad that causes pain.

Anyway, I sold that rifle then got another T3 in 300 Win. Sold that one too, and got a T3 Superlite also in 300 Win. I was loading a 200gr at ~2900 fps for the 300 Win mags, so a fair amount of recoil.

The photo below shows that Superlite 300 Win with a FX-3 6x42 with M1 turret but the target was shot with a 2-7x scope with BDC. Range was only 390 yards, but I scrambled down a clearcut and fired two shots as fast as I could from a big stump. Two orange stickers simply because I didn't think that I would be able to see one sticker with the 7x.

That was over by Wolf Creek, which might be near where you go. I used to shoot by the TSF border, where that huge plate was setup for LR.

Good luck and let us know how it goes. Might be helpful for someone else down the road, as you mentioned previously.

 

[Lkellogg]

Grab a .223 and get shit figured out with that first. a tikka setup the same as your 270 would be a good choice

I wouldnt spend much time shooting off a bench.

I used to shoot 200-300 rounds of rifle when I would go out. Hind sight, I was just burning powder with alot of those rounds. Now days I generally bring 100 rounds of .223, and 50 of 243 and 300rum. I generally dont burn them all up either.

Now when I get to the point I feel I am just burning powder I wrap it up. Some days thats only 20 rounds.

I am in a very similar place as you are, don’t really enjoy shooting just to shoot and don’t like burning through ammo either, but need to do it enough to be effective in hunting situations. What helps me most is going out for a short hike in real-situation areas on public land and setting up to shoot off my backpack or as I would when hunting. Before that though biggest thing for me that helps confidence is shooting on a bench just enough to know 100% that my rifle is accurate and dialed so when I am shooting elsewhere I know that bad shots are all on me and not my equipment. Then just set up different unique scenarios to shoot from that you’ll encounter while hunting and shoot 2 or 3 rounds per setup til you get more comfortable.

 

[rkcdvm]

Being self-aware and critical of where I stand as I hunter, I can honestly say I'm not that great of a shot outside of 220+ yds. This is where I will be focusing a lot of my time over the next few months and would like to be confident out to roughly 500yds by fall.

I realize to get where I want to be; it's going to take practice, practice, and more practice. I hunt with a Tikka T3 Lite 270 WSM. Should I be spending most all of my range time behind the rifle I'll hunt with, or can I use a smaller caliber (.22-250 or .243) to save on ammo cost and recoil abuse? I have a hard time not flinching and thought using a smaller caliber with negligible recoil may help in that area?

I'd also like to hear how many shots people usually take during a range session and any other recommendations or tips to improve my accuracy?

Thanks!

I don't shoot many shots anymore unless I am out at my friends farm. We shoot anywhere from 200 to about 1400 out there. Practice helps but getting a coach to help also helps a lot too. I was lucky that my hunting buddy was a sniper in the Army and my father was a Marine. One afternoon at the range with them I was shooting to 800 in high wind.

500 is very obtainable and a very practical goal. You may check out Joel Turners online course in rifle shooting as well. If its anywhere near as good as his archery course it will be worth the money.

In your last sentence you state are there any tips.. Have fun with shooting. You will make the progress you're seeking and will likely do it much faster than you think you will. Make sure you have fun on the days you're not shooting well. It will shock you how getting in to your own head will make you shoot like crap.

Good luck and HAVE FUN