The Welfare Cattle Empire That Controls Your Public Lands: article

[jkoehle1]

price so high is because we have been cutting back on public leases.

Did you draw that conclusion with anecdotes - or is their data to support that?

 

[Chris in TN]

You are whining- thanks for ruining a thread

When you call someone a whiner then follow with whining about 'ruining the thread' in the next breath.....lol.

Do better.

 

[AHayes111]

Apropos of nothing, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that a group of sportsmen *COULD* pool resources and lease grazing lands simply for the purpose of seeing them not grazed. I don't think anything in the lease says the leaseholder must consume some minimum amount of grass.
We could also privately subsidize - uh, pay - a leaseholder to understock a lease.

Whether that's a worthy conservation strategy, I cannot say; it would undoubtedly vary from lease to lease.

You can take non use for I think three years, but at some point in time you have to stock it.

 

[Customweld]

you wish we'd all stay home in the east so you guys could enjoy your solitude and not share it with us.

Hell, I wish everyone would stay home so I didn't have to share!

 

[jkoehle1]

When you call someone a whiner then follow with whining about 'ruining the thread' in the next breath.....lol.

Do better.

There are plenty of threads on the topic you cant get off of - this one isnt about it or even remotely related.

Thanks for your motivation to continue to advocate that NR get a smaller and smaller share in my state though. Universal 90/10 on tag allocations would be great.

 

[Chris in TN]

Hell, I wish everyone would stay home so I didn't have to share!

Bro, we all do.

The first rule of economics is.....scarcity.

So, all of these discussions always end up being exercises in economic theory. We all want to be the dude out there enjoying the thing that nobody else is doing because he didn't draw the tag or has low T or prefers golf (but I repeat myself) or whatever. So we compete. We compete hiking up the trail from the parking lot at 4am and we compete on internet discussion forums and we compete in the marketplace so we can pay for those nice private land hunts. It's what we do.

My stance in threads like this is that, as I said on page 1, the wisest move is to resist the next bright idea to fix historical wrongs. Human history is nothing more than a constant retelling of a story where a system works even halfway well but one guy feels a bit cheated so he wants to tweak the system a bit - you know, for fairness, or to protect the system from 'those bad guys' with their evil government-grass eating cows or whatever - and next thing you know you have four million dead Cambodians or eight million dead Jewish people. Eventually you have to realize that *you* are prone to the same excesses as anyone else.

Demonize the ranchers (because their cows eat the grass you wish mule deer had) and you'll start a movement and there'll be political actors smarter than you, who won't try to stop you, they'll just join your movement and steer it in their direction and attract different actors and next thing you know, what started as the 'protecting puppies' act, in Congress, kills a bunch of puppies, and some poor fool will cry over it then say 'we'll do better next time' or 'that wasn't REAL socialism' or whatever makes him sleep at night.

 

[KenLee]

There are plenty of threads on the topic you cant get off of - this one isnt about it or even remotely related.

Thanks for your motivation to continue to advocate that NR get a smaller and smaller share in my state though. Universal 90/10 on tag allocations would be great.

Heck yeah, NR stay out

 

[Chris in TN]

Thanks for your motivation to continue to advocate that NR get a smaller and smaller share in my state though. Universal 90/10 on tag allocations would be great.

As much as I enjoy debating ideas, I enjoy it a lot more when I win, but it's a hollow victory when the other guy fights like a girl.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Bro, we all do.

The first rule of economics is.....scarcity.

So, all of these discussions always end up being exercises in economic theory. We all want to be the dude out there enjoying the thing that nobody else is doing because he didn't draw the tag or has low T or prefers golf (but I repeat myself) or whatever. So we compete. We compete hiking up the trail from the parking lot at 4am and we compete on internet discussion forums and we compete in the marketplace so we can pay for those nice private land hunts. It's what we do.

My stance in threads like this is that, as I said on page 1, the wisest move is to resist the next bright idea to fix historical wrongs. Human history is nothing more than a constant retelling of a story where a system works even halfway well but one guy feels a bit cheated so he wants to tweak the system a bit - you know, for fairness, or to protect the system from 'those bad guys' with their evil government-grass eating cows or whatever - and next thing you know you have four million dead Cambodians or eight million dead Jewish people. Eventually you have to realize that *you* are prone to the same excesses as anyone else.

Demonize the ranchers (because their cows eat the grass you wish mule deer had) and you'll start a movement and there'll be political actors smarter than you, who won't try to stop you, they'll just join your movement and steer it in their direction and attract different actors and next thing you know, what started as the 'protecting puppies' act, in Congress, kills a bunch of puppies, and some poor fool will cry over it then say 'we'll do better next time' or 'that wasn't REAL socialism' or whatever makes him sleep at night.

I agree with you that changing status quo will not bring back the bison, or fix the declining mule deer or magically give us amazing elk hunting, and it seems like the system is working best to leave it.

I will break with you on the idea of unbridled capitalism, it must be anchored in some sort of local or national interest, otherwise it’s just crazy globalist cope, like let’s auction off our national forest to the highest bidders! Who cares if they are Chinese industrialists or Russian czars or terrorist sponsoring oil sheiks! Capitalism is heckin good right?!

 

[Customweld]

As much as I enjoy debating ideas, I enjoy it a lot more when I win, but it's a hollow victory when the other guy fights like a girl.

You might think you've won, but you're still in Tennesee and we will all be enjoying everything the Mountain West has to offer on a daily basis.

 

[HunterGatherer]

We’re gonna build a wall, a beautiful wall, to keep Tennesseans out of the west. And we’re gonna make Tennessee pay for it

 

[jkoehle1]

As much as I enjoy debating ideas, I enjoy it a lot more when I win, but it's a hollow victory when the other guy fights like a girl.

Debate the ideas of public grazing then - or start a thread on why you deserve another states resources. Have fun with the mental masturbation and thought experiment - the supreme courts already determined explicitly otherwise.

P.s. public lands arent crowded - the secret is not being too fat to access them - maybe a gym membership would suit your situation better than complaining the west doesnt have a lottery for access.

 

[AHayes111]

Did you draw that conclusion with anecdotes - or is their data to support that?

Simple economics, you left out the one of the reasons part of my quote. There are a lot of other reasons, Drought is a big one, but less public grazing is also a reason, likely a small one, but still one of the reasons.

 

[HunterGatherer]

Bro, we all do.

The first rule of economics is.....scarcity.

So, all of these discussions always end up being exercises in economic theory. We all want to be the dude out there enjoying the thing that nobody else is doing because he didn't draw the tag or has low T or prefers golf (but I repeat myself) or whatever. So we compete. We compete hiking up the trail from the parking lot at 4am and we compete on internet discussion forums and we compete in the marketplace so we can pay for those nice private land hunts. It's what we do.

My stance in threads like this is that, as I said on page 1, the wisest move is to resist the next bright idea to fix historical wrongs. Human history is nothing more than a constant retelling of a story where a system works even halfway well but one guy feels a bit cheated so he wants to tweak the system a bit - you know, for fairness, or to protect the system from 'those bad guys' with their evil government-grass eating cows or whatever - and next thing you know you have four million dead Cambodians or eight million dead Jewish people. Eventually you have to realize that *you* are prone to the same excesses as anyone else.

Demonize the ranchers (because their cows eat the grass you wish mule deer had) and you'll start a movement and there'll be political actors smarter than you, who won't try to stop you, they'll just join your movement and steer it in their direction and attract different actors and next thing you know, what started as the 'protecting puppies' act, in Congress, kills a bunch of puppies, and some poor fool will cry over it then say 'we'll do better next time' or 'that wasn't REAL socialism' or whatever makes him sleep at night.

We’re all competing against those same guys, regardless of how close we live to the mountain. I like hiking competitions better than wallet competitions - but we tend to play to our strengths. I have more willpower to succeed than I have disposable income so naturally I want the competition to be a physical one rather than a financial one. Please forgive my “fitness over wealth” model of meritocracy.

And I’m not trying to “demonize” ranchers. Most of my close friends and family are ranchers. I just think that maybe the way we handle land management needs some improvement and maybe we shouldn’t be subsidizing unprofitable ventures to their/our own demise.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Debate the ideas of public grazing then - or start a thread on why you deserve another states resources. Have fun with the mental masturbation and thought experiment - the supreme courts already determined explicitly otherwise.

P.s. public lands arent crowded - the secret is not being too fat to access them - maybe a gym membership would suit your situation better than complaining the west doesnt have a lottery for access.

Are you in Co ? There is plenty of crowded public here, Wyo or mt or id not as much

 

[Chris in TN]

I just think that maybe the way we handle land management needs some improvement and maybe we shouldn’t be subsidizing unprofitable ventures to their/our own demise.

....which is precisely what I've been playing devil's advocate with for the last couple of pages, and do you see how angry the girls are over it?

Like I said, leave well enough alone.

 

[Customweld]

Are you in Co ? There is plenty of crowded public here, Wyo or mt or id not as much

Don't you be throwin Idaho under that bus! There's a hippie behind every tree up here!

 

[KenLee]

Our prive leases have went from $10-20 an acre in past 8 years real estate boom. Now out of staters are coming in offering $40 an acre...and those prices are to hunt lil SC deer.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Don't you be throwin Idaho under that bus! There's a hippie behind every tree up here!

Oh yeah I forgot! It’s super duper crowded !

 

[WCB]

That’s what I was questioning. I didn’t think that you could keep people off the ground. I know you can do that in some States on State ground but I didn’t think it was possible on Federal.

What are the cases that one can on Federal? Do you know?

Repeated or major conflict between public use and grazing practice and I believe temporary for safety during normal grazing/agriculture practice...ie moving cattle, maybe a water improvement project.