The perfect western muzzle loader

[longrangelead]

I am thinking about building a custom smoke pole from scratch, 50 cal for elk and ID legal but built specifically to shoot up to 300 yds at game and farther at paper. I was wondering what you guys think of the muzzleloaders we have to hunt with right now.

What do you like?

What don't you like?

What would you change?

If you were to build a long range smoker any way you wanted, but had to stay inside the Idaho equipment laws we have today, what would you do?

 

[muledhunter]

Find an Austin and halleck

 

[BRTreedogs]

Can you use a scope in ID?
If not I'm not sure how you could see a deer being the front sight that far.

 

[robie]

I'm curious to see what you come up with but I just not sure how much more accurate you can get than the Knight Ultra-Lite.

 

[longrangelead]

Can you use a scope in ID?
If not I'm not sure how you could see a deer being the front sight that far.

I use a KNS crosshair front sight. This allows you to see the whole target. As long as it's a contrasting color, you can still see a 4 inch circle @ 250 yds.

 

[longrangelead]

Find an Austin and halleck

I just googled A&H muzzleloaders. Beautiful guns! I'm thinking along those lines. A muzzleloader that looks and fits more like a bolt gun. I don't want it to be a bolt gun though. I love the Omega because it's so much shorter. If I based a new gun on a rolling block or similar design it could still be shorter, or have a longer barrel. I might do a 26-28 inch barrel for velocity.

Maybe a knight style bolt in a Rem model 7? Maybe Just build a new knight action out of bigger stock so a barrel can be screwed in like a conventional rifle? Doing this I can have a barrel made with a faster twist to stabilize the bigger bullets. Not having to consider twist rate tearing up a sabot, ultimate stability is the goal. I feel the slow twist rate of most muzzleloaders is just barely stabilizing the bullets, hence all the accuracy issues.

 

[maninthemaze]

Not sure of the laws in Idaho but what about something like Jeff Hankins muzzle loaders?

Custom Rifles - Rifles & Pricing

Never mind... I should have looked at the Idaho regs before making a suggestion. Wow those are some strict laws on ML's.

Just my 2 cents and worth the price charged.

 

[longrangelead]

His guns, Bad Bull, the Rem Ulimate ML and so on got me thinking. Maybe I could build something similar but based on Idaho rules, Idaho being the strictest of the western states.

Built around having to shoot a 50 cal lead projectile. I want to get more velocity, better stability and as good, if not better accuracy than current rifles.

 

[dotman]

I’d get a Cooper before building. I like my knight ultra light but the Cooper is calling.

 

[longrangelead]

I'll have a look at Cooper! I haven't talked to anyone who's shot one, have you?

 

[longrangelead]

I see there is a review here on Rokslide. Man those are sweet guns!

The 209 thing though! If there was, and there might be, a similar design without the 209 and bolt design that hides the cap or at least makes it impossible to get at without a tool.

 

[longrangelead]

I see the Knight Mountaineer has a 27 inch barrel and a 2 MOA guarantee. My current knight is a bighorn so I'm not familiar with their "Western" bolt design. Can anyone comment on how it works and whether it's good, bad or great?

 

[longrangelead]

I just googled A&H muzzleloaders. Beautiful guns! I'm thinking along those lines. A muzzleloader that looks and fits more like a bolt gun. I don't want it to be a bolt gun though. I love the Omega because it's so much shorter. If I based a new gun on a rolling block or similar design it could still be shorter, or have a longer barrel. I might do a 26-28 inch barrel for velocity.

Maybe a knight style bolt in a Rem model 7? Maybe Just build a new knight action out of bigger stock so a barrel can be screwed in like a conventional rifle? Doing this I can have a barrel made with a faster twist to stabilize the bigger bullets. Not having to consider twist rate tearing up a sabot, ultimate stability is the goal. I feel the slow twist rate of most muzzleloaders is just barely stabilizing the bullets, hence all the accuracy issues.

To illustrate my thinking and to get you guys thinking, I'll post some snips (later, my computer is misbehaving)of a ballistic stability calculator for a 250gr Barnes TTSX.
I have chronographed this bullet at 2250 fps out of both my Muzzleloaders and it is only accurate if I can shoot it as fast as possible. I have found the same thing for nearly every bullet I've tried. My TC is a 1:48 twist, my knight is 1:28 and stabilizes bullets easier but is still marginal.

A stability factor of 1.3-1.5 is considered minimal for long range shooting of center fire bullets. The higher the number, the better. Using this as a minimum for muzzleloader projectiles should be reasonable as well since they have poorer SD and BC.

1:48 twist = 0.547 stability factor!

1:28 twist = 1.608 stability factor- better but minimal.

1:24 twist = 2.189 stability factor! That's more like it!

1:22 twist = 2.605! just a little more twist goes a long ways.

The cool thing about the stability factor is it actually goes up the farther down range the bullet travels. Why? Because the bullet's velocity drops off much sharper than the bullets rotation, causing it to spin more per foot traveled as it goes down range.

The above barrel of 1:24 twist, down range @ 1200 fps still has a stability factor of 1.775. By the time the bullet slows to 1200 fps it is at 345 yds so it's gone as far or farther than intended for hunting big game. It's only able to give 820 ft lb's of energy at that range also.

 

[dirtdarte]

I hunt out here in the west and this is exactly what i have endeavored to do... Build a system that makes 300 yds a viable shot option. So, in the course of building that system, I have "discovered" a few limiting factors that restrict what's really possible and still retain ethical hunting standards.

Number one in my mind is your sights. If you cant see well enough to PLACE your sights on the target, you can only hope for precision. So, I'm getting older... like we all are... and my eyesight isn't what it used to be.... I spent a fair bit of time developing a system that enables me to maximize my potential to SEE well enough to place my shot. A scope if legal in the state your hunting is the best by far. Second choice are peep sights and they are pretty good. I use a Williams adjustable receiver sight with a Lee Shaver globe on the front. I also use the Lee Shaver inserts for the front post... or crosshair... or whatever works for your eyes. This gives me confidence to 250 but the conditions better be pretty good. I want precision shot placement... With open or receiver sights... the more refined the sights, the better placement of the bullet.

The next thing to consider is your projectile and load. I use full conicals period. The states that require open sights pretty much require conicals or round balls so I just went into that direction and stuck with it. I'm very happy I did. A conical will outshoot any sabot past 200 yds every day and twice on Sunday. In order to accomplish this, you have to test your loads. There are no shortcuts... You have to have the twist required to stabilize these big bullets... they must be sized to bore diameter or slightly less (.001) should be made of pure lead or a very soft alloy, and you have to accept the idea that velocity and foot pounds of energy figures don't kill animals. This is old technology and well proven by our hunting ancestors and on the battlefield. When a 470 or 500 grain bullet hits an animal it will punch a hole right on through... like all the way through. It's slow and it's heavy and has a lot of momentum. It doesn't need to expand and I don't care if it does or not. You probably won't find it anyway... it will completely penetrate.

Muzzleloaders aren't high velocity weapons... although the trend oner the last 20 years has been towards convincing us that they can be. It's just not true. The improvements that have emerged all seem to make the process of finding a developing a load easier and faster... easier loading.. cleaning... pre-packaged bullets and pellets, shotgun primers... clean powders... etc..etc..etc... The myth is that your muzzleloader can be transformed into a .270 and that bullet expansion and velocity kills animals. It just isn't so.

So, I'll get off my soap box now... I've got to go hunt some cows (elk)... with my new Ultralight... with a Williams receiver sight and Lee Shaver globe... loaded with home cast 470 grain conicals in front of 90 grains of FFG and a #11 cap. It isn't fancy, and it is a step back in time as far as modern components goes, but it's accurate and it's powerful. And I know that if I do my part in the hunting department and get in a good position... those elk are in serious trouble... and isn't that what hunting is about anyway?

 

[longrangelead]

Maybe I'm overthinking the whole thing. If a Knight Mountaineer will stabilize a conical and shoot sub MOA then problem solved! I'll just have to do my part

dirtdarte,
May I ask exactly what conical you are using for that kind of accuracy? I have zero experience in shooting conicals. I do cast some bullets and other lead objects, just never played with conicals.

 

[dirtdarte]

I have shot several conicals but settled on this one...502-500-SWC RG2 cavity HB, NOE Bullet Moulds

I hope that link works...

I shoot it with the hollow base without a wad.. (the wad may make a better seal but the skirt does a very good job of that and I notice no accuracy difference in my rifles). This mold is equipped to cast several different weights and bases... I have it set up to cast the largest bullet with the hollow base.

I've used the Lee 500 S&W mold as well, sized down to .498 and paper patched and it works as well... actually really well, but I hate the lee mold (i'm a mold snob I think) and I don't think a paper patch is necessary at these velocities. I've shot this bullet naked, sized to bore diameter with a good beeswax based lube and had excellent accuracy. This is a good bullet/mold combination to start with as the mold is inexpensive and you will have good success with it if your lead is soft and you size it correctly.

As far as accuracy.... With a scoped rifle... both the Ultralight and the Mountaineer... (I have both).. I consistently shoot 1 inch or a little less at 100yds. Not every shot.... I'm not a shooting machine... but consistently enough to know that these are accurate and I need to improve my bench techniques...lol. I get my best groups early in the shooting session... this is due to recoil not a dirty barrel or any other factors. The bullets need to be weight sorted too... I weigh to within 1 grain... and have great consistency. One grain isn't really necessary for hunting bullets but I do it anyway. If you don't weight sort, you will have fliers and problems in general. Your powder charge is important. I've found the best accuracy with relatively small powder charges.. 90-100 grains. I use real Black Powder... it's the most consistent... more than ANY substitute powder... including Blackhorn or 777... plus it's the easiest to ignite with a #11 cap. Pyrodex P is my second choice and it works very well as well. Charges are loaded by volume. The recoil in the Ultralight is heavy... at least to me it is... I compare it to a .300 ultramag un-braked shooting 200 grain bullets. The trigger guard hammers my finger if I hold the rifle softly... It's enough to rip my hand from the grip. The Mountianeer is no problem but your shoulder will get sore unless your young.

Sizing the bullets to the correct size is important as well. The Mountaineer has a tighter bore... .501... than the Ultralight... .502... at least in my rifles... I have found that if I use a very soft lead alloy I can shoot excellent groups with a very easy to load bullet sized .001 smaller than the bore diameter. I don't need to clean between each shot using Black Powder... but after 2 or 3shots... I am running a patch down the bore. In a hunting situation, the smaller diameter bullet goes down the bore just fine for a quick reload. At the bench, I'm cleaning between shots. Sizing to the actual bore diameter requires that you take your time loading the bullet... Its gotta go in strait or...problems will start to emerge. You can get better accuracy with a bore sized bullet, but for hunting, you don't need it.

This is fun stuff to me, but be patent and methodically test and refine your loads. It takes a little time to get all the pieces to fit together. When it does, the limit to your range will be your shooting ability and your sights. These bullets are hammers and retain enough momentum at 300 yds to kill anything we can hunt in N America. Think Buffalo hunting bullets... Buffalo Bill used a 42 caliber rifle (i'm pretty sure of that... maybe a .43? can't remember) that shot long heavy bullets... and he killed tens of thousands of buffalo with it working for the railroads. It works. Long, heavy bullets equal higher BC... which equals higher retained velocity which equals higher energy which equals deeper penetration. To me, the results and the confidence that brings is worth the extra effort. I'm not putting down sabots or anything like that, but Idaho doesn't allow sabots so I went this direction. You could use Maxiballs or the great plains bullets and they work too... but you do really gain a lot with the big heavies... plus your making them yourself... which is satisfying.
I just last week received a barrel from Knight that I ordered... it's a .45 with a 1/20 twist. I simply asked them if I could get the .45 barrel with that fast twist rate... They sent me one...wow... I'm impressed. It's made to shoot the long heavy Whitworth style bullets. There is a reason why the shooters of old used long heavy bullets for target and warfare... That rifle will be this winters project. For deer in Utah, with a turret adjustable scope and 500 grain bullets, 300 yards should be a chip shot.... If I can do it. And I can. I just hope my legs can keep up.

 

[warrbuk]

There are lots of very nice muzzleloaders out there. I think with your parameters the thing that will hold you back will be the iron sights. I have adjustable rear peep sights on all of mine along with a front bead or target globe sight on the front. The problem is that when looking through the peep and the front globe the amount of light and depth perception is greatly reduced.

Get a western state legal rifle that shoots well out to 250 yards and your sights will dictate how far you can shoot at game. A mule deer in sage brush will be a difficult target at 250 as it blends in so well. A bull elk with the sun on him is another story.

Good luck and have fun

 

[longrangelead]

Warbuk, thanks for the support. Looks like I might end up with a Mountaineer and do everything to maximize accuracy.

dirtdarte, What a load of useful info!! That link is good, I'll keep that in mind once I have enough info to start shooting. Have you chrono'd the two with the same load? I'm curious if the Mountaineer is a little faster with 2" more barrel. Do you use a sizer/luber or another way of lubing?

That's good to know knight will send out just a barrel. I'm considering a .40 or .45 of the same idea for deer if the whole 50 cal thing works out. Idaho requires .45 for deer but WA, OR and CO all require .40 for deer. 40 and 45 sure have a lot more spitzer type bullets to choose from.

 

[dirtdarte]

I haven't chrono'd any muzzy loads to compare... I run them slow though... no crack at firing that I can hear... but I'm guessing that they are moving in the 1200-1400 range.... probably closer to the 1200fps. I will do some chrono work with the .45 though. I shoot at 25 yard intervals to figure out my drop table. All the listed BC's of theses muzzleloader bullets are there to sell bullets... they don't reflect reality. Shooting them at the actual ranges demonstrate what is actually happening and the best way to gain confidence with your rifle and load.The selection of bullets available to the .45 is pretty good, so it will be a fun project. Most people shooting .50's are actually shooting stubby .45's... I'm just skipping the sabot and gaining BC. I wish Idaho would allow .45's for elk, but they have to think about round ball shooters and a round ball in a .45 isn't very good past 100yds... especially for elk. Some would argue that round balls aren't any good for anything... except jackrabbits and coyotes... that wouldn't be me, but we are talking about shooting longer distances after all.

Sizing is easy if you buy the NOE sizer body and a few body sizer collets... It's available on their website. It's a good way to experiment with different sizes without spending tons of money on full sizer dies. It mounts in any reloading press. Lee makes sizers as well and you can order custom sizes for about $30 each. If you pick up an Ultralight or Mountaineer or any muzzleloader that tickles your fancy , slug the bore to find out what the bore size is.... that's land to land... bore size... not groove size... and it's possible that you can use lee's sizer that's made at .501 and be good to go for about $16... as long as the bore size isn't smaller than .500 it will work... if your bore size is closer to .501, you can hone the sizer to fit your bore perfectly...and actually this is the best way to get an absolutely perfect slip fit. If its .502 it's at the perfect size and all you need to do is size and shoot. For lube I just smear the lube into the grooves and then push the bullet through an aluminum block with holes drilled in it at .504 and it cleans them up nicely (it's helpful to have machinist friends) Loading lubed bullets with excess lube on them won't hurt a thing... The muzzle just removes the excess lube once the bullet passes the crown of the muzzle... I pick up the excess and smear that onto the next bullet... works fine... just don't stick them in your pockets...lol You want a natural, non-petroleum based lube that isn't too soft... bore butter is too soft... I like a beeswax based lube that is a little tacky but doesn't get runny or greasy feeling. If you are going to shoot Blackhorn, you'll probably want a petroleum based lube to keep solvents and cleaning compatible without creating a sticky mess.

 

[dirtdarte]

One other thing... and this is really just an aside... You don't need to go through all these hoops making your own bullets... they are available from custom bullet makers... I've never used them... I'm more of a create your own journey type of guy... the process is the reward to me and I enjoy tinkering. If you don't shoot much, you can just buy ready made conicals that will work just fine. I guess the point here is, by going through this process, you will learn more and be more capable of making those shots that most can't. Not because you have a high dollar rifle or super duper cutting edge laserbeam bullets, but rather because you understand what is happening and you know what to expect. Warrbuc made a good point, Just get a western state legal rifle... your sights will determine your range.... and he's right. You can't hit what you can't see. Put your time and research into first your sighting system then your bullet. Put them together and by journeys end, you'll surprise yourself at the ranges you can make hits. Plus, it's fun.