The opposite of the Rokslide special, tooter and quartering gut shots with large cartridges

[TaperPin]

I hate that I'm responding to your trolling, but I can't let this kind of shit go unanswered lest someone follow your advice.

When was the last deer or elk that you killed? Do you have any pictures of the kill, bullet performance, anything? I just went outside to the bone piles here and took a few pictures using your favorite metric of accuracy, a paper plate. I included a tape measure for those that use real measurements.

So your assertion, across multiple threads, is that the above shot on a once-in-a-lifetime bull is valid and ethical. You can reliably hit a 2-3 MOA moving target? From what positions & ranges can you reliably shoot that well? How many elk or deer have you killed with that shot? How many have you wounded and lost? Average shot distance, average number of shots required to kill the animal?

There are plenty of stories and experiences with elk and deer where a broadside shot is pulled and spines them above the stomach or just in front of the pelvis. The result is an animal that is still very much alive, usually trying to get back up on it's front feet while paralyzed from the impact location back. What happens then is the shooter gets into a position where they can make a shot into the vitals or to the CNS above or in front of the shoulder. Sometimes that takes 3 seconds, sometimes that takes 30 minutes.

Somehow a sub-6.5mm caliber is marginal for going through an elk shoulder, yet a .338 or 7mag can go through 3+ feet of spine and stomach to reach the vitals? Or are you just banging away at the animal, hoping to knock it down then be able to go finish it off? That's ethical to you?

If that's your hunting style, what is the difference between that and just hammering away at a rear quarter broadside when you get a glimpse of brown fur? The result will be similar, as breaking the pelvis tends to be a fatal wound regardless of the mechanism that caused it.

The difference is that for an ethical hunter, we want a fast expiration both for the animals' sake and for the quality of meat recovered; which is why gut shots are frowned upon by hunters that take themselves seriously.

You bag on influencers and social media hunters (rightfully so in many cases), yet will advocate taking that shot on a BOAL. The driver behind hunting for social media clout and ass-shooting a BOAL is the same; it's just ego. Taking that shot (or bragging about it) in any outfitter I have worked for or hunting camp I have been in would lead to that being your last trip with us.

First picture is a cow elk spine, 3" in diameter. Spinal column itself is about an inch.
View attachment 997348

Second picture, same spine with a plate.
View attachment 997349

Third picture is a mule deer buck spine with a plate.
View attachment 997351

Fourth picture is looking down that mulie's spine, showing the spinal column itself is under .75".
View attachment 997355

Fifth picture is the pelvis, showing a total width from femur socket to femur socket of 5".
View attachment 997360

Last picture is a cow elk, showing over 3 feet of penetration needed to reach into the vitals from behind.View attachment 997364


PS- Did you kill a deer yet with your 6mm? Or take any cousins/nephews/neighbors/women/children hunting this year and have them shoot a 6mm? What were the results?

Quite literally you think I’m so dense as to believe the spine is 10” across? lol

You went through a lot of effort to prove you didn’t pay attention to what I’ve said. Anywhere and everywhere I’ve ever brought up head, neck or rear spine shots I’ve emphasized it’s a small target and requires an accurate shot. Not anywhere have I suggested they are paper plate size. To the contrary I show a spine and pelvis to show without any question it’s a small target.

Nice try trying to troll me.

For anyone else I’d encourage people to do more reading and pick nuggets of information from the lifetimes of those before us. This is far from a new idea some goof on a forum came up with. lol

 

[VernAK]

I'd never take the first shot in the rear or guts of the animal, but I can recall two instances where I shot a retreating very large critter with effect. A 60" bull moose wounded and heading down the mountain and a large brown bear wounded and running for an alder patch. Both shots impacted in the tail area and dropped the animal immediately. Not my favorite shot but the alternatives weren't favorable in either case.

 

[RancherJohn]

Quite literally you think I’m so dense as to believe the spine is 10” across? lol

You went through a lot of effort to prove you didn’t pay attention to what I’ve said. Anywhere and everywhere I’ve ever brought up head, neck or rear spine shots I’ve emphasized it’s a small target and requires an accurate shot. Not anywhere have I suggested they are paper plate size. To the contrary I show a spine and pelvis to show without any question it’s a small target.

Nice try trying to troll me.

For anyone else I’d encourage people to do more reading and pick nuggets of information from the lifetimes of those before us. This is far from a new idea some goof on a forum came up with. lol

No one is trolling you, just asking clarifying questions on things you have stated.

Below I have one of your quotes on paper plates. You have made this claim multiple times, in multiple places. You also like to use "about X inches", and holdovers with no mechanism to gauge range. I posted the exact size of a spinal column from an elk and deer we killed in the last calendar year. You are the one that repetitively posts vague & abstract anecdotes on hunting and shooting, and when pressed for more information you deflect and say to 'trust a lifetime of hunting experiences'. When was your lifetime of hunting experiences? Do you have any recent hunting experiences? You post in almost every thread on this forum except for any that actually show you having any big-game hunting experience.

How does ass-shooting work when you learned wind calling by walking around instead of shooting? Here are some of your 'nuggets', posted 3 weeks apart.

"A 400 yard shot in 30 mph wind makes a hand width of bullet rise (or fall), putting half the shots in a typical accuracy cone out of the vitals"

"If what you’re selling are shots in 30 mph winds at 450 yards, that so silly as to be ridiculous, but you have been known to come up with some whoppers."

Having spent a number of years teaching young guys and gals how to take wind readings on fire crews and have seen non hunters get very good at estimating winds and understanding direction. We used to take bets what the wind speed was to pass the time. You may find that impossible to believe that an eighteen year old girl can guess wind better than most guys, but it doesn’t surprise me. Translating that to a rifle is pretty easy and mostly getting used to a system so it comes naturally. The mental calculations are quite repetitive and it does more to go through it 10x inside, than once behind a gun. If what you’re selling are shots in 30 mph winds at 450 yards, that so silly as to be ridiculous, but you have been known to come up with some whoppers.

To anyone who reads this and doesn’t know how far off base you are, they should try it. Everything in shooting is easily testable. Get a baseline score with something like one of your multi position targets, and dry fire 100x a day with focus like they were real shots for two cold winter months without any range time and test their groups again.

Same for wind calls. Once a day guess the wind and direction relative to a different point and what your hold would be, measure it and record your errors. After two months the average person will be twice as good. There’s no magic, it’s not a hidden secret, just good practice.

A nugget of good advice is repeated often and across many types of shooting is to simply not avoid shooting in windy weather, and don’t use the 100 yard range to avoid wind drift until shooting in the wind feels as comfortable as calm days.

Aerodynamic jump and how it interacts with wind drift is explained by this diagram. Many guys have thought their zero had changed on windy days and it was simply aerodynamic jump not accounted for in the ballistic program. A 400 yard shot in 30 mph wind makes a hand width of bullet rise (or fall), putting half the shots in a typical accuracy cone out of the vitals.

View attachment 964289

And here's your nugget on the paper plate being a kill zone sized target.

Get what you enjoy shooting.

As an improvement tool, nothing beats paper. You can look back to last month to see your groups, but most can’t remember their groups on steel from the previous day. Steel also stays put, while it’s easy to move paper around.

A big stack of 10” white paper plates goes a long way. I’ve always used that size as the kill zone and at any given range and shooting position you can either hit it consistently or not. Personally I’ve gotten the most use out of them when I can hit them ten out of ten times, move it out further so the hit rate is around 8 out of ten times, repeat as needed.

Also don’t overlook a basic cardboard box. A 20” box is about top to bottom of a mule deer.

 

[TaperPin]

No one is trolling you, just asking clarifying questions on things you have stated.

Below I have one of your quotes on paper plates. You have made this claim multiple times, in multiple places. You also like to use "about X inches", and holdovers with no mechanism to gauge range. I posted the exact size of a spinal column from an elk and deer we killed in the last calendar year. You are the one that repetitively posts vague & abstract anecdotes on hunting and shooting, and when pressed for more information you deflect and say to 'trust a lifetime of hunting experiences'. When was your lifetime of hunting experiences? Do you have any recent hunting experiences? You post in almost every thread on this forum except for any that actually show you having any big-game hunting experience.

How does ass-shooting work when you learned wind calling by walking around instead of shooting? Here are some of your 'nuggets', posted 3 weeks apart.

"A 400 yard shot in 30 mph wind makes a hand width of bullet rise (or fall), putting half the shots in a typical accuracy cone out of the vitals"

"If what you’re selling are shots in 30 mph winds at 450 yards, that so silly as to be ridiculous, but you have been known to come up with some whoppers."






And here's your nugget on the paper plate being a kill zone sized target.

Are you hung over?

You sound a little desperate to try to find bs in what I’ve said. It’s a free country, believe what you want, don’t believe what you want. I don’t change what I say based on how it’s accepted by others.

In addition to any stories I may have passed along is a strong belief that everything we do as hunters and shooters is testable and serious hunters should go out of their way to learn as much as they can and base techniques and strategies on what works in the real world for them.

 

[ReaptheHeat]

Are you hung over?

You sound a little desperate to try to find bs in what I’ve said. It’s a free country, believe what you want, don’t believe what you want. I don’t change what I say based on how it’s accepted by others.

In addition to any stories I may have passed along is a strong belief that everything we do as hunters and shooters is testable and serious hunters should go out of their way to learn as much as they can and base techniques and strategies on what works in the real world for them.

My god you are the bullsh*tter of RS.

 

[RancherJohn]

Are you hung over?

You sound a little desperate to try to find bs in what I’ve said. It’s a free country, believe what you want, don’t believe what you want. I don’t change what I say based on how it’s accepted by others.

In addition to any stories I may have passed along is a strong belief that everything we do as hunters and shooters is testable and serious hunters should go out of their way to learn as much as they can and base techniques and strategies on what works in the real world for them.

No. Are you capable of answering a direct question? Feel free to start with any I asked in my first reply to you. You consistently post things that fail when tested in the real world, and when pressed for more information or clarification you deflect and accuse people of being drunk or hungover (maybe that explains why you post such inconsistent and vague things, get some help if you need it).

I am afraid that a new hunter would come to Rokslide and take your posts as serious advice and try to apply that on their own hunts. The results would be wounded and lost animals, and a lifetime of poor hunting experiences.

I don't think you would know what a serious hunter does or doesn't do, because when you've interacted with them on Rokslide you make a fool of yourself and they stop interacting with you. This is testable and repeatable, just by taking a perusal through the last 8 weeks of your posting history.

As is often the case dealing with you, this is the end of the convo for me. Your refusal to have a conversation in good faith carries across a multitude of topics on this forum, and frankly I'm not sure why you're even here. You could be a value-add by quantifying the things you say, but instead you resort to insults and assertions that someone must be a drunk to even dare ask a question about your outlandish claims.

 

[Billy Goat]

@RancherJohn

Clanker's don't like being questioned.

 

[TaperPin]

Feel free to start with any I asked in my first reply to you. You consistently post things that fail when tested in the real world

I’m confident what I have to say holds up in the context it was written. If you don’t want to shoot or hunt like me then don’t. You don’t have anything to say at the time, but now you want me to backtrack months and debate you on everything I’ve ever said? lol

I like your enthusiasm, but the very first topic you wanted to call me out on is this one and you helped make my point that the base of the tail is a small target. You got lost in the weeds and tried to show it’s a long way up to the lungs, but I clearly said this is more of a spine shot, so you aren’t paying attention or choose to misrepresent what I’ve said.

Same for using a 10” kill zone paper plate to determine a shooter’s max distance for lung shots. It only takes junior high school math to be able to use that information at distance to know what their max range should be for a 2” target at short range. Nothing magical about that. You choose to either act like it’s beyond your comprehension, or you’re misrepresenting things hoping people believe your bs.

 

[Quandary]

Poisoning wolfs or is there more?

There is something wrong with that?

 

[TaperPin]

My god you are the bullsh*tter of RS.

Yet time after time after time after time what I say holds true. lol

 

[Thebigbaby]

There is something wrong with that?

Right

 

[Axlrod]

Yet time after time after time after time what I say holds true. lol

Hahaha
And there it is delusional BS post # 6313!
I think your ban from Facebook has expired and they will take you back.

 

[TaperPin]

RancherJohn, You really dont like 10” plates for some reason. I had to chuckle when you complained I talk about 10” plates but don’t list any yardages. Each person will have different max yardages. Right? What am I missing? If you think it’s important to know what my max yardages are: standing I’m good to about 150 yards, sitting unsupported to 250, sitting with a high bipod 275, prone unsupported 400 yards, over a pack or bipod 500 is doable. My distances aren’t important and each shooter should do enough shooting to know their own max distances. Right? What’s so controversial about that? *chuckle*

You bring up a post where I mention many simple ballistic printouts don’t reference areodynamic jump and you find that debatable? It’s a fact. Areodynamic jump is a fact. In the example of 30 mph winds causing a hand width of jump (or dip) at 450 yards is right off a ballistic solver. Do you want to write them and complain that you don’t agree with the concept?

 

[TaperPin]

Hahaha
And there it is delusional BS post # 6313!
I think your ban from Facebook has expired and they will take you back.

Awwww. . . junior high school humor. lol

 

[ODB]

Sounds like a piss poor hunter making excuses. People manage to kill old bulls with archery equipment.

Also, a well placed quartering away shot with a 375 Ruger has left a co-worker to track an animal for 3 days before finally killing it. Bullet hit where he aimed and stopped in a full stomach. So, I call bullshit on his claim this is a reliable method.

This happens with Cape buffalo as well. Even with solids. That rumen filled bag can damn near stop a howitzer.

 

[WoolOverAll]

This just strikes me as a lazy way to hunt. Rationalize it all you want, but taking shots like this stinks of an undisciplined hunter.

 

[Formidilosus]

This topic comes up every year. It’s entertaining to hear all the wild assumptions from a lack of understanding of basic anatomy, to a lack of understanding what exactly is being disrupted or what has to be shot through to be fatal. Pretty rare does anyone admit to having an interest in having a rear shot in the tool kit, as if it makes sense to pass up an easy 100 yard shot like this just on principle and watch them slowly walk off. Then there are those who don’t know what they are doing and just hold center of mass and complain afterward. lol

View attachment 997181

What’s entertaining is watching your “understanding” and “experience” of anatomy and killing morph since you started posting. What you just wrote about how to do it, is nearly exactly what I wrote in our first ever “discussion” about this- that you argued endlessly about.
Took 2 minutes to find a post from you from 2 years ago, and magically you were saying that you need to get through the guts to the lungs; I was the one you argued with, and have been pretty much been the only one since 2016 explaining what actually happens with rear in shots and that the only way to do it consistently is to effect the spinal cord to drop them and have the follow up shot go through the chest.

You have about zero inherent knowledge. Everything you write is some form plagiarism of what someone else wrote- generally when arguing with your nonsense, just after enough time that you think people have forgotten; with absolutely no acknowledgement of learning that you received. From holding “pancakes” high, to carpenters never setting their tools on the ground, to learning wind calls in broken terrain without ever firing a shot, to targeting the base of the tail in rear end shots.

 

[duffman]

I’ve Texas heart-shotted something (whitetail not elk) once, on accident, with a bow. Was broadside, jumped the string, and pivoted 90 deg just in time for impact.

At first was very upset and thought it would be a disaster. Turned out to be one of the quickest kills with a bow I’ve ever had, crazy massive gallon bucket sized blood trail about 30 yards. Ruined one of the hams but resulted in a quick kill.

I think it would be equally crazy as this guy in the video if I were to then take from my experience that I should just start taking all my bow shots as a Texas heart shots on purpose because it “can work”.

 

[tater]

Ugh. I've typed and deleted three responses to this thread, but here goes.

The guy in the video is a hold over to the mentality that writers like Boddington espoused in the 70's: "Put one in 'em and track 'em down".
I hunted with an Uncle of mine who had that attitude, and he often backed it up with nonsense written in gun rags at the time. He is like a dad to me, but we had a blow out years ago about that attitude and i never hunted with him again.

This is a great opportunity to "break the cycle" and have a new generation of hunters and woodsmen that are better rounded when it comes to cartridge/bullet and shot selection as well as all other aspects of hunting.

Our goal should be to provide the quickest and most humane deaths in the woods and on the mountain. Nature itself is cruel and ruthless in how she kills. We should strive to be better.

 

[Marbles]

I’ve Texas heart-shotted something (whitetail not elk) once, on accident, with a bow. Was broadside, jumped the string, and pivoted 90 deg just in time for impact.

At first was very upset and thought it would be a disaster. Turned out to be one of the quickest kills with a bow I’ve ever had, crazy massive gallon bucket sized blood trail about 30 yards. Ruined one of the hams but resulted in a quick kill.

I think it would be equally crazy as this guy in the video if I were to then take from my experience that I should just start taking all my bow shots as a Texas heart shots on purpose because it “can work”.

Yep, you cut the aorta or an iliac artery and things end pretty quick.

Doing that consistently is not possible, even if you can consistently shoot the eye of a sparrow on the wing.

Due to variation in individual anatomy there is no way to be consistent, without using image (like an ultrasound) to guide placement as external land marks and even bony anatomy will not be consistently in the same relationship to the arteries. Even cutting the carotid on a stunned pig you stab AND sweep the blade.