The next step?

[String&stick]

So I'm currently shooting a Winchester model 70 SS synthetic stock 7mm rem mag topped with a Cabela's Alaskan guide 4.5x14x42 scope. It's been my all around gun for the last 13 years and I've truly enjoyed shooting it. It will shoot 2 inch groups at 150 yds and 3-4 inch groups at 300 yards. Beyond 300 it seems to start to walk around a bit and really lose consistency, which hasn't concerned me much as I'm "zeroed" at 200 and don't normally shoot beyond 300.

Well this year a few things changed, first my nice tight shooting quarters property got sold and I acquired permission on 3000 acres of canyon country with large flats and deep draws. Second I watched both a 150 inch class whitetail and a 170inch class mule deer hang out in the middle of a large flat where the closest point to shoot from was about 430yds out if you were to approach without being seen or smelled. I just wasnt comfortable reaching out that far and passed on both.
Thiss has me wanting to push my effective range out to the 500 or 550 mark to eliminate this safe zone and allow me to cover a large field of view from one vantage without disturbing to much of the property.

So my thoughts, that I would love your advice on, in the order my brain thinks I should approach things (this is where I need the expert advice)

1. Ammo - I have been shooting almost exclusively 139 grain hornady American whitetail ammunition. The reason for this is 2 fold. First when I first got the gun it grouped the best out of the 4 brands I ran through the gun, and secondly I had a friend working at hornady for years and so I have a stockpile of this ammo on hand.

Do I try some hand loading or purchase some more premium factory loads? I have a friend with all the equipment and he even has 7mm dies. Handloading seems like a logical first step (once I can find components again that is).

2. My scope. While the Alaskan guide scope has served me well I know there are other options out there that would most likely serve me better.

3. Trigger - the trigger is a factory set up and fairly heavy, a possible upgrade area.

4. Other areas? Things I'm not thinking of? I've practiced my form and try to shoot a fair amount in the summer and early fall every year so I feel like that side of things is on par. I've shot some friends rifles and shot 3-4 inch groups at 500 yards so I know I'm capable.

Lastly is this expecting to much from this gun? I feel like it should be capable of making those kind of shots, but maybe in its current (unmodified) condition it just isn't capable of reaching out to that kind of range and I need to look at different options???

Feel free to share your advice, criticisms (constructive or not), and tips!

(As a side not I know that hand loading and even trying other ammo might not be an option this year based in current supply and demand! This might be a project for next year, or possibly making the changes I can now while the others wait)

 

[davidsapp]

Trigger job would be the lowest outlay of money with likely the most improvement in your group. I’d do the trigger first and shoot it. If you don’t have a good gunsmith nearby, it’s probably worth mailing the action to someone that knows what they are doing.

 

[Geewhiz]

I don't think I'm one to give long range advice, but you do have my respect for realizing your effective range and sticking to it when there are lives at stake.

Maybe consider getting the action bedded?

 

[Bubblehide]

Do you plan on dialing or using your scopes reticle?
What reticle do you currently have?
When you say you "Beyond 300 it seems to start to walk around a bit " does that mean a specific direction, or all directions?

Yes to hand loading, try a low BC bullet.
Yes, change the trigger to a Trigger Tech

If your rifle wonders all around at 500+ yards, it is more likely you in relation to the heavy trigger pull. I would start with replacing the trigger, and get some good bags and sit down at a range (after replacing the trigger), and really see how the rifle performs, as is (other than a new trigger). I suspect the heavy trigger pull is the culprit here. Prior to installing the new trigger, bed the action if it is not already bedded (there are some good YouTube videos)

Unless your rifle has a whole lot of rounds through it and is getting to the point of needing a new barrel, with the right set-up, it should be capable of 800+ yards easily, but your scope may not be ideal for that. I assume you have a range-finder, which one? You may want a rangefinder with a ballistic app, but it is not necessary for the distances you mention. Additionally, you can always have a new barrel put on and have the action squared (a semi custom); I would do this before dumping a bunch of money into a new scope if you still have issues after replacing the trigger and bedding the action .

 

[Marshmello]

There is alot to this. Looks like you have started to think things through quite a bit.

Handloading will get you some control over the consistency of your loads and allow you to play around more to find the combination that works with your gun. You will also shoot more of which applying the fundamentals will be more and more second nature.
1 MOA accuracy is the minimum objective. That puts you at 4-5 inches from you POA at the distance you mentioned. The better your groups at 100, the better chance of a clean shot at distance all other things being done correctly.

Past 300 yards bullet drop and wind drift start coming into play more. Consistency and understanding elevation correction(the easy part with a good ballistic app and a day out truing your data) and learning how much wind affects your POI (the hard part and gained through experience) will make you a better shooter at distance.

Building a solid position to shoot from is key to long range accuracy. Shooting from a bench at 500 and a modified position in the field are worlds apart. Fundamentals apply the same but it's another layer to get proficient at.

Not familiar with your scope but being able to hold over or dial elevation will minimize your margin of error. I prefer exposed turrets for dialing elevation and holding for wind.

If you can't get your gun shooting at or under an inch at 100 means yes, something needs to. Change. Trigger helps you but doesn't make the gun more accurate. Bedding or a barrel replacement/upgrade are options as well.

Happy to drill into other details with you. Just my opinions of course. Lots of paths to pursue.

 

[hereinaz]

So I'm currently shooting a Winchester model 70 SS synthetic stock 7mm rem mag topped with a Cabela's Alaskan guide 4.5x14x42 scope. It's been my all around gun for the last 13 years and I've truly enjoyed shooting it. It will shoot 2 inch groups at 150 yds and 3-4 inch groups at 300 yards. Beyond 300 it seems to start to walk around a bit and really lose consistency, which hasn't concerned me much as I'm "zeroed" at 200 and don't normally shoot beyond 300.

Well this year a few things changed, first my nice tight shooting quarters property got sold and I acquired permission on 3000 acres of canyon country with large flats and deep draws. Second I watched both a 150 inch class whitetail and a 170inch class mule deer hang out in the middle of a large flat where the closest point to shoot from was about 430yds out if you were to approach without being seen or smelled. I just wasnt comfortable reaching out that far and passed on both.
Thiss has me wanting to push my effective range out to the 500 or 550 mark to eliminate this safe zone and allow me to cover a large field of view from one vantage without disturbing to much of the property.

So my thoughts, that I would love your advice on, in the order my brain thinks I should approach things (this is where I need the expert advice)

1. Ammo - I have been shooting almost exclusively 139 grain hornady American whitetail ammunition. The reason for this is 2 fold. First when I first got the gun it grouped the best out of the 4 brands I ran through the gun, and secondly I had a friend working at hornady for years and so I have a stockpile of this ammo on hand.

Do I try some hand loading or purchase some more premium factory loads? I have a friend with all the equipment and he even has 7mm dies. Handloading seems like a logical first step (once I can find components again that is).

2. My scope. While the Alaskan guide scope has served me well I know there are other options out there that would most likely serve me better.

3. Trigger - the trigger is a factory set up and fairly heavy, a possible upgrade area.

4. Other areas? Things I'm not thinking of? I've practiced my form and try to shoot a fair amount in the summer and early fall every year so I feel like that side of things is on par. I've shot some friends rifles and shot 3-4 inch groups at 500 yards so I know I'm capable.

Lastly is this expecting to much from this gun? I feel like it should be capable of making those kind of shots, but maybe in its current (unmodified) condition it just isn't capable of reaching out to that kind of range and I need to look at different options???

Feel free to share your advice, criticisms (constructive or not), and tips!

(As a side not I know that hand loading and even trying other ammo might not be an option this year based in current supply and demand! This might be a project for next year, or possibly making the changes I can now while the others wait)

What rifles of your friends have you shot better than your rifle? Describe them.

1) The ammo could be improved significantly, IMO. Clean your barrel well, and try the 168 Berger loads or other match type ammo. If you watch for that ammo, you can find some to buy online.

That the groups spreads out at the ranges you are talking about I would still chalk up to skill level shooting long range as opposed to strictly ammo. It isn't falling apart magically between 300 and 500, but shooting form, parallax, rifle/scope cant, and a few other things are what spread a group at range. What you don't know, you don't know. I have studied long range shooting intensely, and am still learning. And, still practicing my form. It takes practice, just like making free throws and shooting 3 point shots takes practice.

2) Get a better scope that can dial and is repeatable, and learn to use it. Get some training. Get online training if you have to. It will be worth every penny, and I almost guarantee that your rifle will all of a sudden start shooting better.

3) Upgrade the trigger.

4) If you have shot your friends rifles to 500 yards, then you know it is the rifle.

My advice is as follows. If you are only shooting within 600 yards, a 7 rem mag will do. If your rifle is shooting about one MOA, then the barrel will be fine, as long as you still have barrel life left and you haven't ruined it cleaning improperly. To improve the rifle, 1) get a new trigger and learn it by dry firing hundreds of times a week. Learn every little creak and movement; 2) get a new stock and bed the action. By doing those two things, you could make it a half MOA gun. Make sure and put a good recoil pad on it. A brake or suppressor is optional, but helps with shooting form.

Your groups open up at long range because of a myriad of possible issues, and listing them would be writing a book. But, with a new scope, better ammo, and a new trigger and stock, you will eliminate many of them. From there, you have to start shooting more to learn the art of long range. If you have a less expensive rifle to shoot and practice, you could do that.

With a magnum and long range, you need to focus on recoil management and form. Watch as much as you can from reputable sources like Sniper's Hide, Modern Day Sniper, and others. Pay attention to those who hammer fundamentals, not gimmicks.

 

[String&stick]

Do you plan on dialing or using your scopes reticle? Open to either but currently use the scopes reticle

What reticle do you currently have? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjABegQIExAC&usg=AOvVaw0c85LqmjzaBBSgNla--5UT it is a ("range finding" reticle with "deer sized vital" circles and lines out to 500 to compensate for drop) not great but manageable, I have my own drop chart that I've worked for my rounds and I base my aim off of that and not the circles in the scope.

When you say you "Beyond 300 it seems to start to walk around a bit " does that mean a specific direction, or all directions? All directions which most likely points to me!

Yes to hand loading, try a low BC bullet.
Yes, change the trigger to a Trigger Tech

If your rifle wonders all around at 500+ yards, it is more likely you in relation to the heavy trigger pull. I would start with replacing the trigger, and get some good bags and sit down at a range (after replacing the trigger), and really see how the rifle performs, as is (other than a new trigger). I suspect the heavy trigger pull is the culprit here. Prior to installing the new trigger, bed the action if it is not already bedded (there are some good YouTube videos)

Unless your rifle has a whole lot of rounds through it and is getting to the point of needing a new barrel, with the right set-up, it should be capable of 800+ yards easily, but your scope may not be ideal for that. I assume you have a range-finder, which one? Current range finder is a vortex 1300

You may want a rangefinder with a ballistic app, but it is not necessary for the distances you mention. Additionally, you can always have a new barrel put on and have the action squared (a semi custom); I would do this before dumping a bunch of money into a new scope if you still have issues after replacing the trigger and bedding the action .

Answered questions in the quote. Thanks for the tips and advice I think a new trigger could be a good starting point and get me working in the right direction.

 

[Bubblehide]

Answered questions in the quote. Thanks for the tips and advice I think a new trigger could be a good starting point and get me working in the right direction.

Okay, your scope is not intended to be a dialed. But, with that reticle, you should easily be able to accurately shoot out to 500 yards, possibly a bit beyond. However, the reticle is highly likely to not match the rounds you use. As such, you will need to learn exactly where the reticle places you at different yardages. I would tape a cheat sheet to the stock, of where to hold at different yardages, say 10, 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600. In short, the scope, for the distances you mention, will do the job, if you do yours.

The walking past 300 is likely due to a stiff trigger pull. With that type of trigger, it will happen to the best shooters. So start with a new trigger. Trigger Tech is the way to go; if you look around or ask around, you will hear Trigger Tech repeated by most experienced shooters and rifle builders. Once you change the trigger (I would bed the action at the same time) please update us on how she performs.

 

[String&stick]

Thanks guys I believe I will start with a new trigger and have the action bedded at the same time, then see how it shoots and revisit things from there! I really appreciate the tips and advice.

In response to another question the rifles I've shot well at 500 were a savage 110 not sure which model but it did have the accufit/accutrigger system. The other was a custom build and couldn't tell you what it was. Both had very nice glass, a good fit, and a noticeably lighter trigger pull.

 

[String&stick]

So looking at their site it looks like trigger tech doesn't make a trigger for the model 70. . . Any other recommendations out there?

 

[orelkaddict]

I know Jewel is making a trigger for the model 70

 

[hereinaz]

So looking at their site it looks like trigger tech doesn't make a trigger for the model 70. . . Any other recommendations out there?

Timney is what I would run in a gun that doesn't take a TT.

I would not use Jewel, given their reliability issues. They are typically a fair weather match trigger if I understand their reputation. I don't use them, so I could be wrong. Something to verify.

 

[hereinaz]

Thanks guys I believe I will start with a new trigger and have the action bedded at the same time, then see how it shoots and revisit things from there! I really appreciate the tips and advice.

In response to another question the rifles I've shot well at 500 were a savage 110 not sure which model but it did have the accufit/accutrigger system. The other was a custom build and couldn't tell you what it was. Both had very nice glass, a good fit, and a noticeably lighter trigger pull.

Get your rifle set up and you should be good to go. The Accutrigger is one of the best factory triggers I have used.

 

[Bubblehide]

So looking at their site it looks like trigger tech doesn't make a trigger for the model 70. . . Any other recommendations out there?

I just looked briefly and saw Triggertech make at least 4 for you rifle.

 

[Flyjunky]

Really good advice above.

You said you've had the rifle for 13 years, any idea on how many rounds you have down the tube? Has the accuracy been consistent or has it gotten worse?

 

[Marshmello]

I didn't see a trigger tech option for the 70. I'm a big fan, have it on a couple of rifles. Heres a thread discussing some options.

Replacement trigger for winchester model 70

Any tnoughts, its my first win 70 and the trigger is at 6.75lbs on my gauge any one have thoughts on which way to go. I'm a huge trigger tech fan, but they don't make it for them I have a timney and its just not as crisp. Any thoughts on what to do where to go would be great. Thanks.

www.rokslide.com

 

[ericacymcdonald]

Give this a read https://www.amazon.com/dp/151865472X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_CDABK0RD6VBZMR9CD6SD

 

[Marshmello]

Just one other observation. A 3-4 inch group at 300 translates to a 5-7 inch group at 500. Not sure how big those groups got when you say "walking around"

I will add, my long range journey started similar to yours except I overestimated my abilities and missed a nice deer at 500 yards. Ever since then I've had a fire under me to never do that again. Don't limit your practice to just the range you want to be proficient at. Your 7mm mag is a very competent long range caliber, paired with a high BC bullet and some work tuning your load or finding compatible quality ammo. Practice at the longest distances you can. It makes coming back to 500 much less intimidating when you can consistently hit 1-2moa targets at 800+. I think that's a 1:9.25 twist so you should be able to stabilize 168 grains easily- something like a Berger 168 classic hunter would be worth trying.

 

[hereinaz]

Just one other observation. A 3-4 inch group at 300 translates to a 5-7 inch group at 500. Not sure how big those groups got when you say "walking around"

I will add, my long range journey started similar to yours except I overestimated my abilities and missed a nice deer at 500 yards. Ever since then I've had a fire under me to never do that again. Don't limit your practice to just the range you want to be proficient at. Your 7mm mag is a very competent long range caliber, paired with a high BC bullet and some work tuning your load or finding compatible quality ammo. Practice at the longest distances you can. It makes coming back to 500 much less intimidating when you can consistently hit 1-2moa targets at 800+. I think that's a 1:9.25 twist so you should be able to stabilize 168 grains easily- something like a Berger 168 classic hunter would be worth trying.

Very good advice. Take practice off the range, shoot like you hunt in field conditions.

 

[30338]

I'd be watching the SWFA samplelist for a used 6x SS scope. They have a great field of view and dial very reliably. Shooting deer at 500 yards with a 6x is no issue at all.